Son changing with Mum at gym swimming

[tailspin21]

Firstly, I know IABU posting in this section when it's not technically but I could really use impartial opinions and I know this is one place I can get them!
So, the conundrum. DS is 8, coming up 9 years old. We go for a swimming lesson twice a week, the pool is attached to a local gym. The men's changing room is one side of the pool and the women's is the other, so they're not side by side. Hubby can't (or won't - different thread!) come with. I am very conscious that women are changing in there - there are cubicles and DS always gets changed in a cubicle, but not every woman does not should they have to. My question is how much longer before he really needs to be going into the men's? I'm becoming increasingly aware but what is the magical cut off?! On the one hand I don't want him making other women uncomfortable. On the other, as an 8 year old alone in the men's changing room he's vulnerable himself. Am I overthinking? When should he be making that move? He's not always the most sensible but is generally not completely daft!

I get the impression that some mothers of sons on here are accusing unknown men of being predators

I used to work for a safeguarding team and I can 100% guarantee to you that sexual predators do target swimming pool changing rooms, as well as other seemingly innocent childhood activities. Sometimes this is even known by authorities, and yet there is nothing they can actively do to stop it from happening. It's nice that you have had so little call to distrust adult men though.

I find it really interesting that some posters find the idea that they should have to ask for something they want, that is not currently available, maybe even campaign for it, so extraordinary or outrageous.

How do you think social change happens? How do you think changes in public provision happen?

Have you any idea how long it took, how much effort and campaigning, for provision of public facilities for people with disabilities to be enshrined in law, then actually happen in practice?

All this 'but I have always been able to do whatever I like, without asking anyone and I shall continue to do so. How dare you even consider I should do otherwise!' is the very definition of unthinking, insular privilege.

It's a fascinating insight.

In the meantime, whether or not you choose to speak up for your sons, there are plenty of practical ways of circumventing this problem, as pps have described.

But if children count why are so many posters saying young boys should change in the male changing area without a trusted adult with them. They are not being counted

I wouldn't send DS into the changing rooms alone. I would only use a pool with a "changing villa" where there is only cubicles. I wouldn't want to take him in the ladies at that age either.

Shame they don't have family changing areas

I get the impression that some mothers of sons on here are accusing unknown men of being predators

Yes. I am.

@SausageSizzle

The reality of male violence is that it’s a constant and ever-present risk to women and children and we shouldn’t downplay it if we want it to go away.

Yes - it's a risk to women. It's a risk to girls. It's also a risk to boys. Don't make out that parents are being unreasonable for not wanting to expose their boys to this risk.

I agree they need a solution which doesn't involve the female changing-room, though.

But no, it's not unreasonable to refuse to send boys into the men's. Even if it means changing outside or in the car.

Yep I agree with this. You can both recognise a need for single sex spaces for girls\women, whilst also recognising that an 8 year old boy alone in a male changing room might be uncomfortable and vulnerable.

@toomuchlaundry

Nope. They should be in a family change. If unavailable then dry at the poolside. Put on a onesie and get them home to change out of swimming gear properly.

They do not get to go into the women's. That isnt a solution. It isnt an option.

Find another way.

Children count equally. But not in a woman's space. In a woman's space, women count more.

But in doing this you're exposing young boys to a significant risk of coming into contact with sexual predators.

The right solution is clearly not for boys to change with girls, but please don't make out that parents are paranoid for not wanting to put their sons at risk of sexual assault.

Exactly. I am the mother of a son (admittedly a toddler so haven’t confronted this problem yet) and I certainly don’t think his comfort will ever trump any girl or woman’s comfort. But denying that male children are at risk from male predatory behaviour is just untrue and unhelpful.

@CatJumperTwat

Peggytheredhen Boys do not belong in the female changing rooms. If you think the male changing rooms are teeming with paedophiles then you find another solution. But you don't bring your boys into the female changing rooms.

No one is saying they're teeming with paedophiles, what we're saying is our sons need protecting too, not just our daughters.

@Brefugee

8 year old boys are not predatory, nor do they want to see your middle aged butt

you never once mentioned the dignity of young girls. They don't get a look in here. Can't you see how fucking infuriating that is? the ONLY thing that matters is that your son (and you) get to do what you want and the girls can fuck off.

Jesus. i have children of both sexes. My sons and my daughters matter equally and i am not sending any of them at a young age to get naked in a room of adult men that we dont know. I would not tell the girls that their feelings dont matter. id be telling them that this is a changing room and that they need to be discreet. no staring at anyone. Use the cubicle. No running around. Speed up and lets get in the pool as quick as we can.

You dont know anybody elses reasons for not wanting to send their 8 year old boy into a changing room of adult men unsupervised, but given the prevalence of child sexual abuse it doesnt take a fucking genius does it.

I always find these threads so difficult because I understand people not wanting small boys in (my 9 yo is tiny) but my god a men's changing room must be so intimidating. We do it but I am terrified and my sons hate it. So I understand but I think people should try and see it from other people's pov too (honestly just saying, not trying to start an argument)

Maybe the answer is a third changing room for adult/post pubescent males. Since they’re the ones who mainly pose the risk.

Absolutely agree with this. Do little boys not deserve protection from potential predators then? Its not only women and girls who are sexually abused and raped.

I don't think anyone here on this thread (or can you point them out) has said that young boys should be served up on a platter for paedophiles to slaver over.

In all the discussion about their boys, most of the mums here have extremely rarely even acknowledged that the girls in the changing rooms deserve to have that boy-free space. (frankly boys seeing my saggy tits and middle aged arse will be put off the naked female form for life and i don't particularly care) Instead we get the "oh you're all making out little boys are sexual predators"

When a critical reading of the thread will show:

1. it is not generally considered safe for unaccompanied young boys to be alone in a changing room with men
2. women on the whole don't appeared to be bothered by the presence of young boys
3. some posters are steadfastly advocating for girls to have privacy
4. accessible changing spaces are rarely discussed (but when they are it's in terms of outrage that when we say girls don't want boys, we mean any boys regardless if there are SEN or other reasons why their mothers want to use the girls' space
5. Gigantic warm bathrobes are a thing (which i want)
6. nobody seems to want to actually approach pools and ask them to fix this

@authenticforgery

I get the impression that some mothers of sons on here are accusing unknown men of being predators

Yes. I am.

yes i am too

But if children count why are so many posters saying young boys should change in the male changing area without a trusted adult with them. They are not being counted

Take up the issue of boys needs being overlooked with the leisure centre etc. The authority with the power to make the change you want to see.

No-one is compelling you to send your boys into the men's changing room. No-one.

We are telling you that, if 8 or over, they are not welcome or allowed in the women's.

How you navigate that is up to you. You could use your initiative, or borrow one of the many excellent, practical tips offered by posters on this thread.

Yes - it's a risk to women. It's a risk to girls. It's also a risk to boys. Don't make out that parents are being unreasonable for not wanting to expose their boys to this risk.

I agree they need a solution which doesn't involve the female changing-room, though.

But no, it's not unreasonable to refuse to send boys into the men's. Even if it means changing outside or in the car.

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying (that’s why I said ‘women and children’). I certainly don’t think parents of boys are unreasonable for not wanting to send their child alone into a changing room with adult men.

As it happens I don't, @CatJunperTwat, nor have I ever said I do.

I just find it astonishing how little regard there is for the general safety of small boys on this thread, as evidenced by your posts among others.

No one is saying they're teeming with paedophiles, what we're saying is our sons need protecting too, not just our daughters.

Sure. So find another solution that doesn't involve them going into the female changing area.

@ImUninsultable

I'm slightly worried about you fixating on naked children. I've never once been into a pool where there were no cubicles, nor have I ever seen an older child that wasn't covered in a swimming costume.

Plus, your comments are completely irrelevant to this post where the op stated there are cubicles for anyone to use.

@Branleuse

Exactly. You think children dont count and dont deserve single sex spaces.

I am astonished. I genuinely am. I worry for your children if this is your attitude.

Children do count. Young girls deserve single sex spaces. Boys deserve safety too. If you do not want to send them into a single sex space then you dry them poolside and put on a onesie and take them home to change.

You do not take them into a single sex space for women and girls because he is not a woman or a girl and single sex spaces matter. Even children need to learn that and follow that rule.

Children matter. The privacy of young girls in a women's changing room trumps your son.

I just find it astonishing how little regard there is for the general safety of small boys on this thread, as evidenced by your posts among others.

Quote the posts that say it's fine to put boys in unsafe situations. I'll wait.

Well, some unknown men are predators. And the numbers are higher than most people think.

[quote ImUninsultable]@toomuchlaundry

Nope. They should be in a family change. If unavailable then dry at the poolside. Put on a onesie and get them home to change out of swimming gear properly.

They do not get to go into the women's. That isnt a solution. It isnt an option.

Find another way.

Children count equally. But not in a woman's space. In a woman's space, women count more.[/quote]
You know that the solution might well be to take away the women’s space?

@toomuchlaundry

What do dads with daughters do in places like this?

I am happy for my DD to get changed with me in the men's area. I guess the difference is I have no concerns whilst she is with me but that isn't what the OP is asking about.

As a dad I don't necessarily see the risk some women think there is in a male changing area. They are typically busy and high footfall. Would a paedophile really want to be in an area surrounded by a number of dads with children?