Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

I would hazard a guess that it comes down to affordability - if childcare in the uk was affordable more women would return to work.

I'm struggling to understand your thought process. You see that 95% of 2 year olds are in daycare and you think they must have been forced. Why don't you think they chose that because it's such a better system?

It is true about Denmark and immigrants - because they have to learn danish language and culture, we have this possibility. Not often used though.

Childcare is cheaper and used more as standard in other countries

Whether it’s good for mothers (usually the secondary earners) or not so good for children probably depends on personal views

God the horror…affordable childcare results in nearly everyone using childcare

@ILoveMyMonkey

It’s not mandatory, it’s a choice you have. It enables women (and men) to have a choice about returning to work by providing affordable nursery choices - something not available to all here in the UK. They also provide 480 days of paid parental leave when a baby is born - that’s an amazing amount of time - and a large proportion of that is on 80% of their salary.

An actual choice would be giving funding to the family. So that they either fund a year away from work or free childcare instead.

Free nursery doesnt give you the chance to stay home with your kids.

I would have loved to stay home for the first 3-4 years of my kids life. Free nursery doesnt give me that choice. Instead I have to work otherwise I can't pay the bills.

I really think kids would have better outcomes if parents were funded enough so that they didnt have to work for at least the first 2 years of the childs life- not funding free childcare instead.

@TeenMinusTests is right,
Listen to "cold Swedish winter"
It is gentle comedy on radio 4 about Swedish life particularly about parenting a new dc.
You will learn all you need to know about the country and be spared having your behind being given to you again on Mumsnet on the this topic.

What are the stats in the UK? How many women who stay at home with two year olds and three year olds are on benefits, or carers, so not making a 'true' choice?

I know people who moved from the UK to Sweden when they had a child because one of them was Swedish and they reckoned they'd only have to pay 300/month childcare. One of them was doing a PhD and it was the only way they could afford this. My assumption is, they had a lot more flexibility and choice than if they stayed in the UK.

The US forces poor women/women who want or need to work back in the workforce, while rewarding the married stay at home spouses of wealthier families, through their tax code and lack of maternity provision. I find it odd that you'd choose Sweden as the country to single out as imposing their will. If you make childcare good, cheap and accessible, then people will take you up on that. What you're describing is the 'carrot' - no 'stick' like the UK that requires you to search for work if your kids are a certain age, or the US that will take away your job if you extend your maternity leave past a certain point. If you really think 'not having enough mates or toddler groups' is a 'stick' from big government forcing women in the workplace - and why women? there's much more shared leave taken in Sweden - then I'd recommend you start looking at other countries policies.

@ButterflyWitch

How long is a day for a child in nursery compared to a child not in nursery????

24 hours in a day. So statistically speaking, I'd say the same.

@sw1v

I am not making a thinly-veiled dig at anyone. I just believe in personal choice. It’s an interesting discussion (well, to me anyway) - why are things do different in Sweden. How much is personal choice and how much is state intervention (direct or indirect). This is AIBU and I’m happy to be U, but I thought this was the place for debates?

I was surprised by the stats, that’s all. If anyone has insights, then please share.

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

Mothers want to work in Sweden. Problem?

Plus, oh yeah, they pay like 150 quid a month for childcare at the very most.

@Wheresthebeach

God the horror…affordable childcare results in nearly everyone using childcare

I know, it's so sickening I can hardly bear it...

@sw1v

I am not making a thinly-veiled dig at anyone. I just believe in personal choice. It’s an interesting discussion (well, to me anyway) - why are things do different in Sweden. How much is personal choice and how much is state intervention (direct or indirect). This is AIBU and I’m happy to be U, but I thought this was the place for debates?

I was surprised by the stats, that’s all. If anyone has insights, then please share.

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

I’d hazard a guess it’s in part because Swedish childcare costs around £150 a month (poster upthread) and costs more than that a week in the U.K.

I am not Swedish, but Norwegian. I started nursery at 12 months myself as both my parents worked. This is normal and it never crossed my mind to give up work when I had children and I don’t know anyone family nor friends who I have even discussed this option with. The difference is also that childcare is seen as a good thing, is affordable (I could have 4 children in nursery in Norway at the same cost as one child in the U.K.) and working days are more flexible, not as long and many people work 80% on the first couple of years when their children are little. Women also get time off work for breast feeding as long as they need to It’s just much more manageable with family life.

I wanted to comment on a post up thread about Denmark forcing immigrant children in nursery. I don’t know if this is true, but in Norway certainly encouraged. This is because integration is seen as a positive and it is recognised that often vulnerable children fall off the radar when they do not attend nursery and other adults see them and they fall behind their peers at the time they start school. I personally think this is the same in the U.K. a lot of abuse cases would have picked up if children attended nursery from an early age.

Your Swedish baby would be busy making friends with his daycare pals. Make your own mates.

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

Where did you read this, Xenophobia Today?

@Cocomarine

Does the IKEA café sell Swedish egg-on-your-face?

One plate for OP, please! 🤣

😂 @Cocomarine Perhaps some humble pie for OP for pudding!

OP please don’t ever vote. I think you lack the reasoning skills required to make a properly informed decision.

[quote WhiskyXray]YANBU. I was watching a Swedish cookery video the other day. They appear to have very little common sense in general.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=B7UmUX68KtE[/quote]
Howling with laughter at this. Well done. 👏👏👏👏👏

They get 480 days of parental leave after the baby is born, and it’s 80% of the salary minimum for the first year

Nobody physically forces children to nurseries at age 1, but the whole system is based on that. There is no tax relief for families to make it cheaper for parents to stay at home (men cannot 'give' some of their income to their spouses to save on tax). Taxes are high - it is more beneficial to have two smaller incomes than one large.

But: parents have a right to reduce their hours to part-time (75 % or more) until their youngest child turns eight. Employer cannot refuse this. Employees can change this when they want to and it suits them.

Parents have an unlimited right to stay at home from work with children who are ill.

Parents can save maternity/paternity days until their children turn eight, and use that to extend summer holidays for example. This right supersedes holiday, which has led to issues in some careers where x people must work: some parents (say nurses) will take maternity/paternity days over Christmas every year - thus forcing other people to work, the employer has to first approve maternity etc.

So there are good things, and bad things.

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

Because in the UK there is very little state funding for preschool childcare, meaning that it is stupidly expensive. This often still forces one parent (often the mother) out of the workplace, especially once they have more than one child. Childcare costs simply wipe out their income and then some. That was what happened to me. It really isn't hard to understand.

I'm not sure about Sweden but certainly in Denmark, which has similarly lavish childcare provision, it is very very unusual to work part time. (It is true that full time often means finishing work at about 4pm though). No one I know would take their toddler out for a day to hang out with friends - all your friends are working full-time, like you, and all their kids are in daycare!

I also think it can be difficult for people living in the UK, which is a diverse society which highly values personal autonomy, to appreciate how powerful social norms can be in countries like Denmark and Sweden

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

Money. Money. Money.

It's high quality and affordable. It allows people to work part time and keep more of their earnings because the money doesn't all go on childcare. I just worked out what full time childcare would cost me now, at my current level of pay, in the UK and for 2 young children.

It's 98% of my wages. Women in the UK often don't work because they cannot afford to.

I have close friends who were caught in this trap and became SAHMs only to have their husbands leave them for another woman - at which point they had had several years out of the workplace and greatly reduced ability to earn. In Sweden, they would have been able to afford to work and would likely have been in a much stronger financial position when the relationship breakdown hit.

I'd put the question the opposite way - why does the UK put so much financial pressure on households that women cannot afford to work and be independent?

@Lalliella

Couldn't agree more.

@sw1v

I am not making a thinly-veiled dig at anyone. I just believe in personal choice. It’s an interesting discussion (well, to me anyway) - why are things do different in Sweden. How much is personal choice and how much is state intervention (direct or indirect). This is AIBU and I’m happy to be U, but I thought this was the place for debates?

I was surprised by the stats, that’s all. If anyone has insights, then please share.

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

Do carry on ignoring all the replies on this thread, OP.

I agree that you believe in 'personal choice'. You are choosing to believe strange shit from your own head and choosing to call this 'debate'.

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

Where did you read this, Xenophobia Today?