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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

825 replies

sw1v · 27/10/2021 14:40

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

OP posts:
ColinTheKoala · 29/10/2021 21:28

OP if you never left the kids when they were newborn, 2, 4 and 6 how did you do things like get a haircut, a smear test or go to the dentist?

sw1v · 29/10/2021 21:35

Marsha, sorry, to respond to the question you’ve asked several times, I do actually see what you’re getting at. We’re all a product of ‘culture’ to some extent. My husband had a difficult background and I think this is largely what drives him because he says he wants to make a generational difference for his children. And he has achieved this. But also yes, he’s from a background where men are raised to feel responsible for financially providing. Not only for your children, but also your mother or relatives who may need it at some point. This is how it is and his brothers are the same. It’s an issue of integrity for them and it runs deep. This is where he’s coming from and I understand this and so respect him for it, to be perfectly honest. It’s nothing to do with the 1950s, though i’m sure someone will wilfully misunderstand and hilariously mock it as such.

OP posts:
Melassa · 29/10/2021 21:40

I’m not smug, said teens are my relatives and I feel really bad for them. At the time I was irritated by the superior comments from their mother, however, which included I was setting my child up for a raft of mental health problems by “abandoning” her. Judgy shit. I shrugged it off, they made their choice, don’t criticise mine. The example was just by way of anecdata (indeed I did alert it was anecdata and not based on a large, regulated study of the effect of EY childcare on the juvenile brain).

WalkingOnTheCracks · 29/10/2021 21:41

@sw1v

Marsha, sorry, to respond to the question you’ve asked several times, I do actually see what you’re getting at. We’re all a product of ‘culture’ to some extent. My husband had a difficult background and I think this is largely what drives him because he says he wants to make a generational difference for his children. And he has achieved this. But also yes, he’s from a background where men are raised to feel responsible for financially providing. Not only for your children, but also your mother or relatives who may need it at some point. This is how it is and his brothers are the same. It’s an issue of integrity for them and it runs deep. This is where he’s coming from and I understand this and so respect him for it, to be perfectly honest. It’s nothing to do with the 1950s, though i’m sure someone will wilfully misunderstand and hilariously mock it as such.
I think you were unreasonable about Sweden, OP, but you’re getting a hard time now that you really don’t deserve. Every couple finds their own way to run a household, and I can’t see that it’s reasonable for anyone to knock the way you happily and effectively run yours.
MarshaBradyo · 29/10/2021 21:41

Op fair enough. It sounds like it works for you both

Personally I’d separate out financial provision and ability to be with young dc, ie they are not mutually exclusive. But I’m just as much a product of my education and background as anyone.

sw1v · 29/10/2021 21:50

Thanks and my apologies for my own unreasonableness about Sweden.

OP posts:
Cranncat · 29/10/2021 22:15

@sw1v

“What didn’t you ever discuss? Having four children? Whether someone was going to be a SAHP? Which of you was going to be a SAHP?”

This is like 20 questions Grin. I suppose I always knew that if I had children, I’d want to be with them. When I met my husband we were married very quickly. Yes we discussed we’d like maybe 4 children. But we didn’t discuss ‘roles’ as such because I suppose we just knew what we were doing.

It seems to me a rather mad thing to do to render yourself economically inactive for many years without even discussing it with the person on whom you will be making yourself financially dependent. And I’d be surprised if many people were thrilled for it to be taken for granted they would drop their career on having a child.
Thatcantberight · 29/10/2021 22:26

Don't apologise sw1v. You were not being unreasonable. You had a thought, questioned it, a sticky bun fight ensued, a few casualties occurred. All in a days work here in Mumsnet😁

DallasDerby · 30/10/2021 08:22

@sw1v

Thanks and my apologies for my own unreasonableness about Sweden.
I think Sweden will get over it! You stumbled into the SAHM vs WOHM debate - and that is a war zone where shots are fired with the aim of defending one's own position - rarely does it involve a reasoned debate that respects one's right to an opinion. It does get tedious but both sides feel a bit got at from time to time.
Parker231 · 30/10/2021 08:32

We can only hope that the U.K. moves towards the Swedish model and the next generation benefits from high quality affordable childcare and employment benefits with equality at home and work.

NoJuliana · 30/10/2021 09:48

@sw1v You’ve no need to defend your family’s set up, as you say, each family is different 💕

BoredZelda · 30/10/2021 11:10

Equality has many manifestations

It doesn’t. Equity has many manifestations, but each of them should lead to Equality. And you don’t appear to have that.

If you had true equality, you should be able to walk away from your marriage if something went wrong, with there being the same impact on your life either financially or logistically as their would for your husband. I suspect you would be royally fucked with 4 kids to look after and no job. Hers be able to carry on in his life of riley.

Until women are not trapped by circumstances, there isn’t equality.

MarshaBradyo · 30/10/2021 11:56

I think the personal isn’t so relevant - I probably interpreted the ’we’ differently

The question on a societal level is a good one, probably for another thread though

sw1v · 30/10/2021 13:13

‘If you had true equality, you should be able to walk away from your marriage if something went wrong, with there being the same impact on your life either financially or logistically as their would for your husband. I suspect you would be royally fucked with 4 kids to look after and no job. Hers be able to carry on in his life of riley.‘

Why would you assume this about a family you don’t know? You are totally wrong. Never assume.

OP posts:
WalkingOnTheCracks · 30/10/2021 13:27

@BoredZelda

Equality has many manifestations

It doesn’t. Equity has many manifestations, but each of them should lead to Equality. And you don’t appear to have that.

If you had true equality, you should be able to walk away from your marriage if something went wrong, with there being the same impact on your life either financially or logistically as their would for your husband. I suspect you would be royally fucked with 4 kids to look after and no job. Hers be able to carry on in his life of riley.

Until women are not trapped by circumstances, there isn’t equality.

….of course, what the man tends to lose is equal time with the kids.

And that matters. That circumstance is as much one that traps men as the one that you rightly suggest traps women.

You’re right. That’s not equality.

Thatcantberight · 30/10/2021 13:58

Just a suggestion but why don't the people who want to discuss the whole SAH vs WOH financial implications topic start another thread?
OP has in effect shut this one down, obviously satisfied with the responses to her initial post, childcare in Sweden. Now 33 pages in she is still defending her marriage/parenting decisions. A completely different topic now.

sw1v · 30/10/2021 14:14

Thatcantberight - Thankyou and yes, I’m not sure what there is for me to say here. Life is about compromises and choices and we made ours. Hardly a shocker.

OP posts:
BoredZelda · 30/10/2021 14:40

Why would you assume this about a family you don’t know? You are totally wrong. Never assume.

You’ve already said he doesn’t look after the children. Why would that change if you split up? And you think honestly he would move out and continue to pay for everything as he does now? That would be very rare in your scenario.

….of course, what the man tends to lose is equal time with the kids.

The man tends not to have equal time with the kids before the marriage splits and certainly doesn’t in the OP’s case.

And that matters. That circumstance is as much one that traps men as the one that you rightly suggest traps women.

It matters just as much within a marriage but most often we hear on here that men are not spending equal time with the kids, they are working in their oh so important jobs and doing oh so important hobbies. Then when there is a split why whine about never seeing their kids when what they actually mean is not having the convenience of dipping in and out as they pleased which they did during a marriage.

Thatcantberight · 30/10/2021 14:47

BoredZelda
Start a new thread ffs.
What does anything you just said have to do with ChildcareinSweden

BoredZelda · 30/10/2021 15:23

Start a new thread ffs.

Ooh, the thread police are here! Is your badge very shiny?

What does anything you just said have to do with

Do try and keep up, dear.

Thatcantberight · 30/10/2021 15:31

Again, what does anything you just said have to do with childcare in Sweden?

vajingleberry · 30/10/2021 16:34

@Thatcantberight

TBF to @BoredZelda this thread has moved waaaay past that topic.

BoredZelda · 30/10/2021 16:38

TBF to BoredZelda this thread has moved waaaay past that topic.

Thanks. But also, TBF to @Thatcantberight, at 33 pages, I probably wouldn’t have RTFT if I hadn’t caught it near the beginning either! 😆

mugandspoon · 30/10/2021 17:01

I am glad to see that the first few pages' slightly rose-tinted view of the circumstances of bringing up children has had a bit of a reality check from other people (in addition to me) who have given other perspectives. There are loads of things that are good - the fact that everyone can access childcare for very little money is fantastic. The fact that it sometimes leads to children spending a lot of time there is problematic, but rarely seen by people who choose to/feel forced to make use of many hours of childcare.

(The problems with having too many children per group/per staff member has been quite widely advertised over the past 5 years at least by staff in settings who testify about how impossible their jobs have become. I just read a report today which showed that in councils in Stockholm county, only 29.8 % FTE staff in nurseries have the college education that everyone seems to think all staff members have taken. The majority hasn't (and may still be fantastic staff of course!).)

@sw1v, OP, your view of your family and how things work for you is more or less incompatible with the Swedish vision of how life should work for women, men, parents and children. Your statement that it would be impossible for your husband to take parental leave just wouldn't cut it there. There are many entrepreneurs in Sweden - male and female - and somehow they manage. Some struggle, but few. And your husband, if he'd been working in Sweden, would have been completely moulded in expectations that he would take considerable responsibility for his children. Why would he have them otherwise..? It would be a very unusual, and probably not very well seen man, who would choose not to spend time with his children when they're young. And yes, this includes very well paid men - they will likely take fewer days/weeks than their spouses, but they will still take some.

It should be said that there are some small conservative groups that lobby for changing the tax system so that it'd be cheaper for the woman to stay at home (eg joint taxation to lower the tax for the family - this was removed in the early 70s in Sweden).

This has the advantage that headings like the one I saw in a UK women's magazine less than 10 years ago are extinct in Sweden. It said 'Are you one of the lucky ones whose husband babysits his children?' I remember feeling flabbergasted reading it - surely there would be outrage - surely nobody would accept that/think that was a suitable heading? But no - few reactions. Very strange for a Scandinavian.

This has other consequences too. The concept of 'primary carer' doesn't exist. When a social worker friend of mine, who worked with contact, told me that a not unusual outcome of divorce in the UK was that the woman kept the family house 'since she had to have it since she had to continue to care for the children'. The man had to continue paying for it though, which sometimes resulted in his having to move in with his parents, unable to afford a second home for himself - which led to his sometimes struggling to be allowed to have his children overnight, since his home wasn't suitable! This is completely unthinkable to a Scandinavian - in Scandinavia, the starting point following a divorce is always that both parents will get 50 % of the time and shared custody. If one parent hasn't spent that much time with the children before the divorce, well it's his/her turn to step up then! It is very common for children to move between homes every week (and yes there are obviously issues with that too! I'm not a great fan myself. Acquaintances of mine solved it by keeping the family home for the children, and renting a small flat with two bedrooms where each parent took turn living a week at a time. Great for the children, but few people are as unselfish as they were.

So no, to summarise, your way of life probably would not have been a great fit for Sweden. But it is highly likely that you would have had other world views if you'd grown up there - you'd have been very likely to want to use your degree, to want your husband to take much more responsiblity for his children (your writing that it wouldn't have been safe to leave him with them is almost laughable) and to want to partake in society more than being your children's driver/cook/cleaner etc etc. It simply would not have been a very fulfilling life for you since there would be very few people in your situation to do anything with at all, just like many people have written.

sw1v · 31/10/2021 07:42

I think you sum it all up very well @mugandspoon. Thanks!

OP posts:
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