Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

I wish the U.K. childcare provisions were as good as Sweden. We used full time nursery for DT’s from six months and it was a nightmare finding the right nursery.

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

Where did you read this, Xenophobia Today?

priceless

I'm aware this is apocryphal but my Swedish (dentist) friend does tell me that her DM and her sibling are horrified that she has chosen to be a SAHP and, had she stayed in Sweden, she would have felt compelled to work.
Proves nothing I know.

It's a pity the OP had to do such a provocative thread.

Because the whole notion of "How can we simultaneously support/balance women's different choices about work?" is actually a good and important one.

When you are deciding things like how taxation should work (example: do you tax on an individual-by-individual basis or a household-by-household basis?), some ways of doing things will be better for families with a SAHP, others will tend to "push" families towards both parents working. So which do we choose, and on which grounds?

Swedish society is organized in a way that tends to push women towards working. I actually would personally like to live there. However, yes, there will be some negative tradeoffs for women who want to be SAHMs. We should talk honestly about this.

@ColinTheKoala

But if it is true that 95% of children are in full-time day care at age 2, that means there can’t be many left out and about. So if you were looking for stuff to do with your two-year old (toddler groups or even just friends etc), it would be a nightmare because all the kids are in this daycare! So you would feel like an outlier and this is subtle societal pressure

So nobody ever works part-time?

or takes their kid out of nursery for a day so they can go for a day out with friends and their kids?

The Nordic countries are really big on enjoying the outdoors. I find it completely implausible that they lock their kids up in indoor daycare and adults in employment 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. In any event, they work fewer hours than we do, especially in Denmark.

I would suspect actually that cheap childcare would make it more affordable to work part time/flexibly. I don't live in Sweden but ironically the main reason I couldn't afford to drop my hours is because I am spending so much on childcare.

My BIL and SIL live in Sweden and have a 3 year old. This is definitely not true about nursery. In fact, they don't even start school until they are 7. But even if it was true, what's it got to do with you? Sounds like an excuse to bash parents that have to send their kids to nursery at a young age.

I believe the OP may have read the stats I quoted, which were from the Swedish National Statistics, SCB:

www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/artiklar/2019/23-000-barn-gar-inte-i-forskola/

In Swedish, but the relevant diagram is called 'Andel barn inskrivna i förskola efter ålder. Procent' (Proporation of children in preschool after age. Percentage).

@ILoveMyMonkey found later stats too.

It is perfectly right what @sw1v is saying that since most children are in childcare more or less full-time from a young age, there are few activities for parents with children older than 1.5ish.

Most of the children who do not attend preschool are children of immigrants, and children in lower socio-economic groups, which gives them an even worse start in school. That is one reason why mandatory preschool from age 3 has been proposed by the biggest party (and why a group of MPs have suggested mandatory preschool from age 2).

(I had this discussion with an Australian acquaintance in Sweden who thought he might want to be a stay at home dad until their children turned 5 or so - his partner had a more well paid job than him. I had to break it to him that financially, it's almost impossible, and he'd be very lonely, since hardly anybody else lives like that.)

What are your views on IKEA meatballs OP?
Asking for a friend.

90% of 2 year olds means 10%. of 2 year olds aren't.

In all honestly, I literally know one mother of a two year old who isn't working full time. That is obviously just my circle, but being a stay at home mother isn't the norm where I live at all, and my childcare sadly is not subsidised. During lockdown, I experienced what it would be like having our toddler at home: she got full undivided attention of her parents (we both worked crazy long hours but split her waking hours so she wasn't just left in front of the tv) and while I briefly thought I'd feel massive guilt when she returned, it turns out that it really is beneficial for her, and she loves it.

If you think you child would benefit more from you staying at home, and you can afford to, then.... do that? Personally I think by two, and DEFINITELY by three, they benefit more from spending time with their peers.

Curiously, I'm pretty sure Sweden has pretty strong rules around shared parental leave and probably a lot more rights to take unpaid leave and have your job protected, so I imagine this is true parental choice, rather than people who can't afford to go back to work.

oh dear OP.

I am not making a thinly-veiled dig at anyone. I just believe in personal choice. It’s an interesting discussion (well, to me anyway) - why are things do different in Sweden. How much is personal choice and how much is state intervention (direct or indirect). This is AIBU and I’m happy to be U, but I thought this was the place for debates?

I was surprised by the stats, that’s all. If anyone has insights, then please share.

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

What a load of crap. If you read something ridiculous, OP, check it?
Kind of like the crap we were sold about Brexit?
www.expat.com/en/guide/europe/sweden/19295-childcare-in-sweden.html

The Swedish see childcare as good for children.
You do know some cultures are horrified that we encourage children from 3 to attend nurseries and have elderly relatives in care homes?

In what way are they forced? Parents choose this based on the very high quality childcare offered in Sweden.

I really wish we would follow Sweden’s example in this and many other matters. As a society they are much more pragmatic, enlightened, and forward thinking than us in so many ways.

@sw1v

“A quick google would have given you the stats : 50.5 percent of one-year-olds attended preschool, 90.6 and 94.0 percent respectively of two- and three-year-olds and 95.3 percent of all four- and five-year-olds according to the statistics database of the Swedish National Agency for Education. May 2021”

Thanks. There you go then... it’s true!

But it is not true that they are forced into using the childcare.

The statisic may be true because, believe it or not, many parents want to use the provision and believe it has benefits for them and their children. I'd have chosen to use it if such a system had been available to me instead of years of earning nothing and being on the bones of my arse.

Nobody in Sweden is holding a gun to anyone's head and frog marching them to put their child into nursery.

Really OP? You seriously think that all those parents are forced, even subtley, to send their children to preschool or is it more likely that ots good quality, affordable and enables parents to return to work?

How long is a day for a child in nursery compared to a child not in nursery????

@sw1v

Somebody on another thread just quoted these stats today.

And why make yourself look an absolute fucking idiot by repeating them without doing some research first? So embarrassed for you.

Also, there's nothing we do better than Sweden, other than the fact they need to pay a small amount to visit the GP. However, it prevents a lot of unnecessary appointments so we should probably consider taking after them on that one too.

£150 a month for a full time preschool place including food and nappies

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

If you wanted to learn this is what you should have led with and not "Thank god we don't live in Sweden".

Is it more high-quality childcare though? How?

Surely most kids in the UK are in nursery at age 3/4? And funding is given for certain people who have 2 year olds, for the child's benefit. How is this any different? You sound ignorant.

@apalledandshocked, childcare in Sweden is very cheap. About 20 years ago a 'max cost' was introduced which means that nobody pays more than £120 per month for however many hours you need. The idea was to make it cheaper for parents - one outcome was that more parents let their children spend more hours in preschool. This put pressure on staff, and has led to an increase in the number of children/staff. Since there are no ratios and councils always have no money, the number of children per group/per staff member is considerably higher than it used to be 20 years ago.

It is a completely different society to the UK, in good ways and in bad ways. Society's responsiblity to protect/help/support everyone is much bigger than here - the drawback being that family's options to 'choose themselves' are fewer.

YANBU. I was watching a Swedish cookery video the other day. They appear to have very little common sense in general.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=B7UmUX68KtE