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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

825 replies

sw1v · 27/10/2021 14:40

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

OP posts:
EchoNan · 27/10/2021 15:01

Gosh. Those pesky Swedes, making childcare available!
How very dare they!
Try reading this OP. HTH
www.norden.org/en/info-norden/childcare-sweden

ILoveMyMonkey · 27/10/2021 15:01

A quick google would have given you the stats :
50.5 percent of one-year-olds attended preschool, 90.6 and 94.0 percent respectively of two- and three-year-olds and 95.3 percent of all four- and five-year-olds according to the statistics database of the Swedish National Agency for Education. May 2021
A bit of common sense would tell you non of those people are forced into using child care!

Topseyt · 27/10/2021 15:03

Sweden is a democracy, not a dictatorship.

It is fairly high on tax, but there is good early years childcare provision which is subsidised. That doesn't mean that anyone is forced to used it, though it is useful for parents (particularly women) who don't want to be forced out of the workplace while the children are very young.

Original poster
sw1v · 27/10/2021 15:03

I’m hardly saying babies are being carried off by the state.

But if it is true that 95% of children are in full-time day care at age 2, that means there can’t be many left out and about. So if you were looking for stuff to do with your two-year old (toddler groups or even just friends etc), it would be a nightmare because all the kids are in this daycare! So you would feel like an outlier and this is subtle societal pressure.

OP posts:
Penistoe · 27/10/2021 15:03
Biscuit
CactusFlowers · 27/10/2021 15:03

God, the absolute BASTARDS providing quality, affordable childcare so women can afford to stay in employment.

shylatte · 27/10/2021 15:03

Scandi countries undoubtedly have excellent systems (if you want to commit a crime head there, some of the best prisons in the world) but you don't have the same autonomy that you are afforded in the UK. I read that there is a very strong expectation that everyone should work, hence why so much money is pumped into very high quality childcare settings. I also read that being a SAHP is very frowned upon, not sure if that is true or not. Home education is banned in Sweden, not sure about the other Scandi countries.

Cranncat · 27/10/2021 15:03

@Starcaller

90% of Mumsnetters are called Derek.
I am going to quote this stat forever as absolutely true, because someone said it on the internet.

I may also start an aggrieved thread about how most of that 90% actually want to be called Ovaltina, but Aren't Allowed by MNHQ.

It's truly a travesty.

EileenGC · 27/10/2021 15:04

@sw1v

Well fair enough, I should have checked the exact stats before I posted. But I thought someone in here might know about this and explain if or why it’s true. And I am asking AIBU. This is the point!
YABU. Point answered.
Original poster
sw1v · 27/10/2021 15:04

“A quick google would have given you the stats :
50.5 percent of one-year-olds attended preschool, 90.6 and 94.0 percent respectively of two- and three-year-olds and 95.3 percent of all four- and five-year-olds according to the statistics database of the Swedish National Agency for Education. May 2021”

Thanks. There you go then... it’s true!

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 27/10/2021 15:05

Oh yes, and I can see your thinly veiled dig at full time working Mums too.

I can too. And it's shit.

EchoNan · 27/10/2021 15:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

SummerHouse · 27/10/2021 15:05

@Starcaller

90% of Mumsnetters are called Derek.
This just goes to demonstrate that 48.2% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Cranncat · 27/10/2021 15:06

@sw1v

I’m hardly saying babies are being carried off by the state.

But if it is true that 95% of children are in full-time day care at age 2, that means there can’t be many left out and about. So if you were looking for stuff to do with your two-year old (toddler groups or even just friends etc), it would be a nightmare because all the kids are in this daycare! So you would feel like an outlier and this is subtle societal pressure.

Do you really need your own preference not to work to be bolstered by other women choosing not to either? If life at home with your toddler is isolating and dull and I wouldn't blame you, it would have been for me, had I chosen to be at home with mine maybe it's not for you, anyway?
FreedomFaith · 27/10/2021 15:06

@sw1v

“A quick google would have given you the stats : 50.5 percent of one-year-olds attended preschool, 90.6 and 94.0 percent respectively of two- and three-year-olds and 95.3 percent of all four- and five-year-olds according to the statistics database of the Swedish National Agency for Education. May 2021”

Thanks. There you go then... it’s true!

Prove that they are forced to do this then. That was your point after all. Hmm
EileenGC · 27/10/2021 15:07

@sw1v

I’m hardly saying babies are being carried off by the state.

But if it is true that 95% of children are in full-time day care at age 2, that means there can’t be many left out and about. So if you were looking for stuff to do with your two-year old (toddler groups or even just friends etc), it would be a nightmare because all the kids are in this daycare! So you would feel like an outlier and this is subtle societal pressure.

You do know toddler groups aren’t a thing in most countries, right? Hmm I’d never heard of them until I moved to the UK, and I’ve lived in a few places.

Why do you keep talking about social expectations? What do those have to do with the way you decide to raise your children?

user1471460811 · 27/10/2021 15:07

I live in Sweden with my nearly three year old kid, who is at preschool at the moment. The system here is really good, and is based around encouraging parents to be able to go back to work/study if they want. If one parent at home and not working or studying you will be limited to 15 or 30 hours of preschool per week.

My son has a place in a local preschool a few minutes walk away, and attends for 8.5 hours a day. We have flexible timings for pickup and dropoff, but most of the kids have gone home by 4pm. We only pay £150/month for a full time preschool place, including food/nappies etc.

In our local council-run preschool there are three teachers for 15 kids maximum, which seems ok to me. In my experience Sweden often doesn't have official limits on things like childcare ratios, because they expect organisations to do the right thing. If there was only one teacher to 15 kids there would definitely be a scandal!

I would say that the Swedish system encourages people to send their children to preschool from around 18 months (you get 18 months paid parental leave per child). It is not possible to place your child at preschool before the age of 1, and most join at around 14-18 months old for a shorter day (around 6 hours), before going to full hours if the parents are both working.

It would be unusual for a kid to not join preschool before they go to school aged 6. However, it is definitely not compulsory! Many people choose to keep their children home, or to only send them part-time. If you don't have a place in a preschool, there are so-called "open preschools" which function like playgroups. So the parents stay with the children and play together. They can drop in as much or little as they want.

In terms of the societal expectation. Yes, you would expect a child who is 18 months or older to be in preschool. And there is some aspect of helping children to integrate into Swedish society through attendance in preschool (some might see that as indoctrination). But mainly it is seen a low-cost way for children to socialise and play and learn some independence, and to allow parents to work/study. I second the suggestion to listen to The Cold Swedish Winter, which looks at the indoctrination question in a humorous way.

ILoveMyMonkey · 27/10/2021 15:07

There you go then... it’s true! but what it doesn’t tell you is how often those children attend, it could be 5 days but it could be 1 day. It also makes no suggestion that it’s mandatory like your op suggested.

oakleaffy · 27/10/2021 15:07

A Swedish friend of mums who married an Englishman was asked by her father when she left Sweden:
''Why do you want to leave this lovely clean country for that filthy overcrowded place?''
He has a point!

Dumle · 27/10/2021 15:07

I'm Swedish and this is not true!

HermioneKipper · 27/10/2021 15:07

Sounds good to me! I’m off to Sweden!

ColinTheKoala · 27/10/2021 15:07

But if it is true that 95% of children are in full-time day care at age 2, that means there can’t be many left out and about. So if you were looking for stuff to do with your two-year old (toddler groups or even just friends etc), it would be a nightmare because all the kids are in this daycare! So you would feel like an outlier and this is subtle societal pressure

So nobody ever works part-time?

or takes their kid out of nursery for a day so they can go for a day out with friends and their kids?

The Nordic countries are really big on enjoying the outdoors. I find it completely implausible that they lock their kids up in indoor daycare and adults in employment 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. In any event, they work fewer hours than we do, especially in Denmark.

apalledandshocked · 27/10/2021 15:08

@sw1v

I’m hardly saying babies are being carried off by the state.

But if it is true that 95% of children are in full-time day care at age 2, that means there can’t be many left out and about. So if you were looking for stuff to do with your two-year old (toddler groups or even just friends etc), it would be a nightmare because all the kids are in this daycare! So you would feel like an outlier and this is subtle societal pressure.

So... if I as a mother who wants to work am enabled to do that by cheap, good quality childcare, (along with other mothers in my position) is it wrong of me to take up that opportunity because I am "providing subtle social pressure" on you to do the same? Or is it more morally right of me not to work so that I and my child are "out and about" for you to interact with when you choose?

In short - If you want to be a stay at home mother, then that's absolutely FINE - no judgement, do whats best for you and your child. But please don't try to insinuate others being enabled to do what is best for them and their families is a bad thing.

EileenGC · 27/10/2021 15:09

@sw1v

“A quick google would have given you the stats : 50.5 percent of one-year-olds attended preschool, 90.6 and 94.0 percent respectively of two- and three-year-olds and 95.3 percent of all four- and five-year-olds according to the statistics database of the Swedish National Agency for Education. May 2021”

Thanks. There you go then... it’s true!

I don’t think you have great reading comprehension OP. Perhaps it would be good for your children to go to nursery so they can start being educated and learn how to understand some simple stats or sentences.

How does that tell you they’re being forced??

And how do you even know it’s true - because a second Mumsnetter said so? I don’t see you researching any official papers or studies on this subject.

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/10/2021 15:09

So you would feel like an outlier and this is subtle societal pressure.

So? Have the courage of your convictions. You want your kids home until they're 25, go for it.

Is it as bad as my DD's primary organising three parents events in the day in two weeks then telling me DD would be 'sad' if someone didn't attend all of them. Couldn't a grandparent go? I'm an immigrant who lives thousands of miles from family. So no, judgmental teacher, no they can't. No one said a word to DH of course.