Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

YABU

I have never thanked God I don't live in Sweden.

I have chosen not to work when I had a baby, I've also had the stress of having to work and use substandard (in my opinion, not OFSTEDs) child care.

Having quality, affordable childcare available to all is very important for society and the economy.

Just like vaccinations are important, but it doesn't mean you have to actually access it.

I imagine people in other countries are alarmed we send out DC to full time school aged four. Most people do, but you don't have to. They're only four, keep them at home and educate them yourselves if you like.

@Porfre
I would have loved to stay home for the first 3-4 years of my kids life. Free nursery doesnt give me that choice. Instead I have to work otherwise I can't pay the bills.

But if you take away the £1500+ it cost you in childcare to actually go to work and then be given free childcare and you wouldn’t have had to work anywhere near the same number of hours - hence you would have a had a choice.

The difference in the uk is a lot of families cannot afford childcare fees and so it becomes pointless working - so many people talk about how they are working to simply pay for childcare costs so might as well not work at all.

Free / cheap childcare does give people a choice.

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

Are you just using this thread like your own personal lazyman’s google..?

Because childcare is ridiculously expensive in the UK. One of the most unaffordable systems in the western world, in fact

As several posters have pointed out to you, how many times do you see/hear/read people (women) saying they would love to work or work more but can’t afford the childcare?

Where a live, a full time nursery place is around £2k per month

That means someone has to be earning at least £30k a year to bring home enough each month to pay the nursery bill, let alone have anything left over

This means a lot of people are forced into being SAHPs that don’t automatically want to be, but don’t have any option

When childcare is both affordable AND great quality, as it is in Sweden, AND employers are flexible as standard, a lot more people chose to work part or full time

Childcare in this country is not only expensive but it is difficult to find. Sweden seems to more about supporting itself as a country by not excluding a large chunk of their potential workforce from accessing some form of work. You seem to be saying you'd rather stay at home and go to parent and child clubs. You are assuming an overly controlling state because more Swedish parents choose to access childcare and that they are happy with that. They are exercising their choice. In the UK childcare is a lot less about what an adult chooses to do. Childcare controls my choices and the same is true for others I know. The Swedes are not limited by childcare choices rather enabled by them?!

Rubbish, childcare provision is excellent in the Nordic’s but certainly not mandatory!!

Porfre:
"An actual choice would be giving funding to the family.
So that they either fund a year away from work or free childcare instead.

Free nursery doesnt give you the chance to stay home with your kids."

That option is regularly promoted by the Christian Democratic Party, but it is more expensive of course since the person at home would not be working (and contributing to society, and paying taxes).

Anyone can stay at home of course (so far), but I do not know anyone who can afford it and/or have prioritised it. You'd be very lonely with your child :-(

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

Where did you read this, Xenophobia Today?

This is such a perfect answer!

I just thank God I don't live in the UK anymore tbh

Where did you get this bollocks from?

What I’m saying is, if I lived in a society where over 90% of 2 year-olds were in full-time daycare, then I would probably have felt compelled to do the same (even though I didn’t actually want to).

Of course cheap and affordable childcare will be brilliant for many families. But people don’t only do things because it’s ‘cheap and affordable.’ It’s more complex than that, I think and there must be a ‘tipping point.’ A pp has said, it’s hard to find places to socialise your 2 year-olds (friends or groups) in Sweden because there is not the demand if over 90% of the kids are in daycare. This type of thing would influence you, surely?

So many misconceptions, can’t address them all!
However…
“Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?”

Daycare is generally small and family scale, very affordable and not long days and no problems about coming in late or missing days. A better question would be ‘why wouldn’t 90% of parents use flexible well staffed and trained local small scale cheap childcare?’

@Kokeshi123

It's a pity the OP had to do such a provocative thread.

Because the whole notion of "How can we simultaneously support/balance women's different choices about work?" is actually a good and important one.

When you are deciding things like how taxation should work (example: do you tax on an individual-by-individual basis or a household-by-household basis?), some ways of doing things will be better for families with a SAHP, others will tend to "push" families towards both parents working. So which do we choose, and on which grounds?

Swedish society is organized in a way that tends to push women towards working. I actually would personally like to live there. However, yes, there will be some negative tradeoffs for women who want to be SAHMs. We should talk honestly about this.

This.

I think you've managed to write the the OP meant for her!

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

Where did you read this, Xenophobia Today?

It's also compulsory was Swedish people (over the age of 18) to only wear sandals between March and September. The penalty for not doing so is imprisonment for 21 days.

@sw1v

Somebody on another thread just quoted these stats today.

so did you fact check? or just share random shit you found online?

I work in the UK for a Swedish company. My colleagues in Sweden work shorter hours daily, are notoriously difficult to get hold of in the summer as they all take long 3 to 4 week breaks with their kids. Their work set up seems to be much more orientated to being family friendly than ours and encourages both mothers and fathers to be able have both a career and have a family life . It comes across as much more progressive and inclusive than the UK where we do tend to fall into traditional roles and businesses are not supportive of a work life balance.

So one statistic doesn't really tell a whole story.

"Parents in Sweden are entitled to 480 days of paid parental leave when a child is born or adopted. Each parent – should they be two – is entitled to 240 of those days. If the child is born in 2016 or later, each parent has 90 days reserved exclusively for him/her. Should he/she decide not to take these, they can’t be transferred to the partner. A single parent is entitled to a full 480 days.
Statistically, fathers in Sweden currently average around 30 per cent of all paid parental leave."

You are privileged if you can afford longer than 9 months off in the UK and not have to put your child in childcare

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

Where did you read this, Xenophobia Today?

An excellent publication @DressedUpAtAnIvy, may I commend your good taste? It's in their "Wilfully Misunderstood Anecdata" section, a top-hole article.

I think they're bringing out a weekend supplement called "Ignorant Suppositions," alongside their sister magazine - "Goady Fucker Round-up".

Would you like a subscription?

I am Swedish.

Swedish policies have for many years been to encourage women to remain in the work force. One of these ways is to heavily subsidise daycare/preschool, but not subsidise families where one parent wishes to stay at home - simply because that parent pretty much always ends up being the mother and it's detrimental to women's careers, wages and in the end pensions and so on to be SAHP:s. We have ended up with a culture where pretty much all children go to daycare/preschool from about 18-24 months old. The care is very good, normally, and trained preschool teachers are employed.

It is true that one consequence is that parents who stay home with their children will find themselves a bit lonely. The playgrounds are a bit empty alright, and the "open preschools" where parents with small kids can go to hang out do a sort of "preschool light" thing tend to be occupied with parents on parental leave ie with very small children. Not much to do for older kids! However from the age of three children are entitled to a place in daycare/preschool for up to 525 hours/year, whether the parents are working or not, so older children will meet other kids that way (most children do go).

I'm more interested in the class perspective on this. Those who have a well-paid job of an office-y nature, with flexible working hours etc eke out their 480 days of parental leave so their children are older when they start preschool and also don't have to go as many hours. The working classes usually have to use their 480 days in a row before going back to work, their kids are younger, and have to stay full days.

I find the post amusing, since we look at the UK in absolute horror, where you send young children to actual school in uniforms and children aren't allowed outside to play freely (these are our prejudices).

I am Swedish and OP - you are a fool. To everyone else,
take no notice. As you were

@TheExtraGuineaPig

If they're trying to force babies in but have only managed 50% then they're not very good at it are they?

But ... but ... the Swedes are clinical & efficient! * How could they have failed so badly?

• Other stereotypes are available.

[quote ILoveMyMonkey]@Porfre
I would have loved to stay home for the first 3-4 years of my kids life. Free nursery doesnt give me that choice. Instead I have to work otherwise I can't pay the bills.

But if you take away the £1500+ it cost you in childcare to actually go to work and then be given free childcare and you wouldn’t have had to work anywhere near the same number of hours - hence you would have a had a choice.

The difference in the uk is a lot of families cannot afford childcare fees and so it becomes pointless working - so many people talk about how they are working to simply pay for childcare costs so might as well not work at all.

Free / cheap childcare does give people a choice.[/quote]
From the thread Sweden does seem to be doing much better than the UK with the like of parental leave and childcare.

It's just everytime I see any UK government announcements about extra free hours childcare for children, for working parents I would despair. Rather than 30 hours a week. I would have been much happier if the funding had been given to me instead so that I could have stayed home with my child.

Just for the first 2 years or so. Too late now anyway cos the kids have grown up.

But there are lots of stay at home parents who could have stayed at home longer if they could have chosen what to do with the funding.
E.g. 30 hours free childcare a week over term time or the equivalent as a payment to the parent instead.

The fact that your source is "someone else on the Internet" invalidates whatever point you're making, and if you didn't set out to slag off Sweden, then maybe you should have chosen another title.

@banivani yes, what she said.

OP I suggest you read these books (sorry for the awful long links, too lazy to tidy them up):

www.amazon.co.uk/Almost-Nearly-Perfect-People-Scandinavian-ebook/dp/B00FZLTYPQ/ref=sr_1_8?hvlocphy=41227&hvnetw=s&keywords=a+year+of+living+danishly&hvadid=79920850831373&hvbmt=be&qid=1635345285&dchild=1&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=kwd-17302957412%3Aloc-188&adgrpid=3804694449&sr=8-8

www.amazon.co.uk/Year-Living-Danishly-Uncovering-Happiest-ebook/dp/B00Q8SR5L0/ref=sr_1_1?hvlocphy=41227&hvnetw=s&keywords=a+year+of+living+danishly&hvadid=79920850831373&hvbmt=be&qid=1635345285&dchild=1&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=kwd-17302957412%3Aloc-188&adgrpid=3804694449&sr=8-1

@Etinoxaurus

So many misconceptions, can’t address them all! However… “Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?”

Daycare is generally small and family scale, very affordable and not long days and no problems about coming in late or missing days. A better question would be ‘why wouldn’t 90% of parents use flexible well staffed and trained local small scale cheap childcare?’

It is not true that daycare is generally 'small and family scale'. In many councils, childminders have been removed completely, based on a belief that it is better for children to spend their time with educated preschool teachers, and where there is a less risk of issues if the childminder is ill.

Standard preschools are getting bigger and bigger due to an increasing number of children. Here's a preschool that opened in 2020: they have 259 children, a three story building, and 15 different groups. This is a big preschool, but not 'unheard of' big for newly built ones.

malmo.se/Bo-och-leva/Utbildning-och-forskola/Forskola/Forskolor-A-O/Forskolor/R/Ronneholms-forskola.html