To think only the computer literate can now go on a foreign holiday

[rookiemere]

We're just back from Tenerife and had a wonderful time, but oh my goodness the online forms to fill in were not easy for either Spain or UK, nor was the Randox registration for our PCR tests on return ( in Scotland).

I consider myself to be reasonably computer literate, but I was very grateful for some prompts I found on a Facebook help group. It took me an hour for each passenger locator for, and another hour roughly for three PCR tests ( plus an additional half hour to drive to a drop box as apparently they don't accept Royal Mail boxes anymore).

I get why the documentation is needed, so I'm not against that per se, but the fact it must be done on a device means that some people may not have that and are now forced to buy a smart phone which seems unfair.

You also need to be pretty literate to interpret the questions, so again could be tricky for some.

So my AIBU is, is it right that the form can only be completed online ?

@DriftingBlue

I can maybe buy into people in their 80s possibly not being computer literate, but everyone below that, including people in their 70s have used computers actively for a long time now.

That is simply not true.

My 84 year old father is pretty confident on a computer. He can do stuff like online shopping, banking, email etc, though he might find it hard to negotiate a very unfamiliar process.

My mum is in her late seventies and doesn't have a clue. She has a smartphone that she struggles to use. She can manage WhatsApp but even that is stressful. She has never really had to use a computer and she lacks the confidence to try.

My neighbour, in his mid sixties, has a computer at home that he is terrified of using. He did a skilled manual job all his life and never needed a computer. He has really struggled over the last year with everything that has moved online and is constantly asking my dh for help. He finds it incredibly stressful.

In the context of my work, I come across many much younger people who are digitally excluded. It's easy to assume these days that people know what they're doing, but there are still a lot of digitally illiterate people out there. It's easy to say that they should learn but they don't always have the confidence or even the access to devices on which to learn. Of course, many of these younger people will not be in the demographic that can afford a foreign holiday in any case, so that's the least of their concerns, but it's silly to pretend that they don't exist. Digital exclusion is a massive problem for our society.

There is zero chance of my In-laws being able to navigate these forms. Late 60s but never had jobs where needed to use computers. We bought them one recently - I doubt it's come out of the box since we left it with them (painful teaching how to switch on!).

My mum and dad early 70s - can breeze through computer use

It does depend on career background I think at that age.

Ive just sent my boys to the Uk as unaccompanied minors. Didnt find the PLF complicated at all and just printed everything off for them to show at the airport. Admittedly getting back to where we live is easier as no PLF.

However my (70 and 72 year old) parents visited this summer. They just made sure they filled in the return PLF before leaving the UK and saved it. Then just submitted it 48hrs before going back to the UK.

Another tip if needing to show tickets on an app or whatever: when you re ay home with wifi do a screen shot of the ticket/qr code. Then when you get to the venue it doesn't matter if the signal isn't great.

Not everyone is traveling overseas for a holiday. In friends case he was returning to his homeland to see his terminally ill dying mother before it was too late. We paid for his flight as he is on low income no savings. His return flight was cancelled 4 times by RyanA!r$e so I had a lot of PLFs to complete and email to his son to print out. The 48 hour window made it even harder . I can appreciate that these may be obstacles to prevent unnecessary travel but it made it tricky. At least then didn't have to pay for tests which is another limiting factor and adds more cost.

@PaulaTrilloe this is a good point, many people are traveling to see relatives they have not been able to visit for a long time, for some older people it may be a last visit before they are too infirm to travel ( although perhaps again this doesn't happen to mumsnet elderly).

However there is a worrying undercurrent of opinion that it doesn't really matter that travel is excluded to some of the population. They should just get themselves the right phones - which are expensive- and teach themselves how to use them - which would be difficult without some computer literacy, then fill in the complicated online forms - very hard if you have a low level of literacy.

Having just been through the process I do agree the forms were confusing. Actually found the Spanish form much more complicated and that took some time. Especially as I made an error on one of the vaccine dates and it wouldn’t let me change it!

However, the UK PLF, whilst still a bit confusing, I it took me around 15/20 mins to do a family of 4. Really can’t see why it took you an hour to do one?? Maybe you get asked more questions in Scotland? I had ordered the PCR tests before we left so had all the info and reference numbers to hand.

However - I also was unable to scan the vaccine status QR code, but after 2 attempts it says ‘click no and you can show status on arrival’.

What miffed me more was the fact that no one asked to check our vaccine status on arrival…

The charity www.wavelength.org.uk
and the #OperationWifi campaign are trying to increase digital inclusion in communities. By loaning / giving basic smartphones or tablets and DAB radios and providing data. To combat isolation

@Dee1975 the Scottish form is the same as the English one, I just thought our vaccine details might be in a different format. I was determined to get the details uploaded so most of the time was taking photos of the QR code and trying to get it on the form. Maybe I'm just particularly slow though, but I did find some of the questions tricky to answer correctly.

Yanbu

I am very computer literate, and have spent all my working life since 1990 on computers, have the latest smart phone etc.

The Greek plf was a lot easier this year,, the Greek government obviously responded to the clarity issues last year. But the British plf has become more complicated and the randox submission forms were also a faff to complete on a smart phone.

My dad, also computer literate (taught himself computer programming in the 90s) would struggle as he is beginning to find forms more difficult to understand.

The Greek plf form took me about 5 minutes, brutish PLF form about 25 minutes, randox forms about 30 minutes total.

And no one checked on arrival back in the U.K. so just a complete waste of tine

Just to add, as it seems a common problem, also unable to upload qr code for vaccinations so that was another waste of time. Obviously this is a common issue.

There comes a point at which technology becomes mainstream, we have reached that point with computers and the internet I think. If you are in your late 60s and cant navigate a computer that means you have been refusing to get onboard with them for nigh on 35 years, for the internet 25.

It's not so much that it doesnt matter of people get left behind, more that there comes a point where it becomes inevitable. There have been - and still are - many, many cheap or free opportunities to learn how to navigate this not so new world - my 80 year old mum had just gone on an introduction to smart phones course run by the local council when COVID hit and has had to learn to shop online and use zoom over the last 18 months.

The world moves on. You either run to keep up or get left behind. That's not new.

It is more complicated than it needs to be. Even a list of what information you need to input would be useful! We also had to submit new forms once at the airport because we couldn't check in until we had a plf and then we were given seat numbers which meant we needed new plfs.

I found it stressful. I'm not sure how computer literate I am, however I am posting on Mumsnet and I do work with computers everyday. I can think of lots of people I know who would either be unable to complete the form or who it would take ages for.

Maybe you won't get the agreement on here, it bring an online forum so the people on here will be comfortable with tech.

But I totally agree OP. I seem to be the go to in my family for navigating all these things on behalf of elderly family members. Not just holiday stuff but recently had to complete a really complicated blue badge renewal for a friend of my mum's in his 90s who was completely in a panic about the whole thing. There was no other way to apply for it.

I agree with PP about for other things but PLF etc are temporary for the pandemic so wont exclude permanently

I'd imagine many elderly people would have great difficulty navigating what is required.

Oh my goodness... Would you like to pat me on the head too?

I'm 'old'(*) and I'm blind and I can use computers and phones better than my personal assistants (who come to help me with other stuff, like going out) can!
I have been een helping young sighted neighbours sort out their online shopping, covid vaccine appointments etc.

I'm disappointed that you forgot to say "awww bless" too.

(*) old = over 60,completely grey hair and used the 1st ever word processor in Yorkshire in 1981 (it was about 8'x6'x6')

The digital divide still very much exists in the UK. Not just the elderly but those with disabilities, those living in poverty and those in rural areas with poor access to the network. They are plenty of people who are not able to access things via the Internet not just holidays. Things like benefits, jobs etc are hard to access without Internet access.

@rookiemere They should just get themselves the right phones - which are expensive

I've just spent 2 minutes googling and found a PAYG smartphone for under £50. That's not expensive at all. Yes, a tint minority may not have £50 to spare, but then they wouldn't be able to afford the flights, passports, taxis, etc to travel abroad anyway.

@ApolloandDaphne

The digital divide still very much exists in the UK. Not just the elderly but those with disabilities, those living in poverty and those in rural areas with poor access to the network. They are plenty of people who are not able to access things via the Internet not just holidays. Things like benefits, jobs etc are hard to access without Internet access.

Yes, living rurally, I appreciate that, but as each day passes, there are more and more options to get connected, virtually every cafe/coffee shop has free wifi, as do libraries, and even places like shopping centres, hospitals, etc have free visitor wifi.

I’m definitely computer literate but I’ll be honest, the changing rules, different requirements and norms over masks and fossil distancing between countries and the chance for any bit of it to go wrong makes the idea of travel very daunting right now.
It’s probably not as hard as I’m imagining but I’m avoiding for now. This is the longest I’ve ever not been abroad in my life by far but I think it will be a while longer. I guess that is kind of the point though isn’t it? They’re not banning it, they’re making it difficult.

@rookiemere I tried photo and screen shot of my pass - neither worked! I wonder if there has been a bug in the system where it that bit doesn't work maybe?! 🤷‍♀️

Shocked no one checked when we landed though - there wasn’t any health checks at my local airport. (Unlike Spain that had a whole team checking all the docs. Doing random temp checks etc …!!!)

@rookiemere
You have a completely valid point - digital exclusion is real and a problem. Older people and poorer groups are more affected. Havent RTFT as don't want to waste time reading about people's 103 yr old coding grannies.

@OverByYer

I’m going away next week and I’m finding all the forms and tests overwhelming. I went to a gig last night , in Wales where we have to have Covid passports 🙄. Poor young guy didn’t have a smart phone and got turned away. Felt so sorry for him. He had his vaccinations card but that wasn’t good enough apparently. What difference does it make?

I don’t believe for a single minute that a “young” guy, with the means to go to a gig doesn’t have a smart phone. You can buy fake vaccine cards for around a tenner, and I’ll bet the house thats what he had done.

My 75 year old Dad is currently in Spain. He did everything from his new iPhone 13.

That's nice @stargirl1701 .

My DPs are in their 80s - granted they are too frail to travel now anyway- my DF was an early adopter of all technology but around his late 70s his ability to navigate the changes declined. At that age they were still travelling abroad, but wouldn't have if they would have been required to navigate through online plfs.

I have found the intuitive aspect of Apple really helps with my PILs. They had very little tech but we bought them an iPad when DD1 was born so we could FaceTime. Over the last 10 years, they both came to find it so useful they bought another so they could have one each. They passed an old one onto my DC this month as they upgraded to the latest model this month.

They are also in their mid 70s.

They have the money to purchase the latest tech and they now need it to live their lives. I'm not saying they use it the way my DC do but they would not be without iPads now. I can't see this changing.