To think only the computer literate can now go on a foreign holiday

[rookiemere]

We're just back from Tenerife and had a wonderful time, but oh my goodness the online forms to fill in were not easy for either Spain or UK, nor was the Randox registration for our PCR tests on return ( in Scotland).

I consider myself to be reasonably computer literate, but I was very grateful for some prompts I found on a Facebook help group. It took me an hour for each passenger locator for, and another hour roughly for three PCR tests ( plus an additional half hour to drive to a drop box as apparently they don't accept Royal Mail boxes anymore).

I get why the documentation is needed, so I'm not against that per se, but the fact it must be done on a device means that some people may not have that and are now forced to buy a smart phone which seems unfair.

You also need to be pretty literate to interpret the questions, so again could be tricky for some.

So my AIBU is, is it right that the form can only be completed online ?

I find the concept of the "digital native" a bit questionable...in my experience, many of my students can use apps so long as they work, but the second something goes wrong, they need me to sort out their IT problems, because they don't understand HOW anything works...and my mother, who was already programming computers when they first became common, has trouble using windows- or icon-based interfaces, because she continued to use a command line long past their advent, and just doesn't recognise what the icons stand for (the mic is "egg in a cup" to her; the video camera, "rectangle with a triangle"). When she wants to typeset documents, she uses a markup language and a compiler, not a word processor. If she wants to calculate financial formulae or do her taxes, she uses her head, or paper and a pencil. She doesn't use a smartphone, because she uses a mobile phone for phone calls, not to access the internet. She doesn't see the need to access the internet, beyond email and the occasional Zoom call...But I digress.

Regarding the PLF etc., I just returned from abroad (not from a "foreign holiday", ugly phrase, but from family business that I, at least, regard as essential, even though some on here would lambast me for daring to move away from my family at all), and despite being digitally rather fluent, was also thinking that these various forms could cause a lot of trouble for a lot of people. I didn't find the PLF that complicated, except that it wanted you to have booked your Day 2 Test before submitting it, which wasn't entirely clear in the instructions. So I went and booked the test, to get an email with a number on it, telling me that I would get ANOTHER email with ANOTHER number on it, and this second number was the one I needed for the PLF. A tad inefficient, I'd say...

Ironically most people recommend printing out the plf documents and QR codes to make it easier for airport staff to look at them. So much for our technological era.

I went to the theatre. The theatre scanned our QR code on tickets on our phones. Except it wouldn't work with mine. So I was sent to the box office who printed out some tickets for us.

OP I totally agree with you. Several years ago I was a travel agent and I have struggled with all the red tape needed to go on holiday. We nearly didnt go because I was struggling to get my head round all the different requirements. It has taken hours. A friend of ours who travels regularly to Spain was denied boarding recently because he didnt have all the right paperwork.

I didn't find the forms at all problematic on my two trips abroad this year but other people obviously found them harder. I imagine some people get round the barriers by getting their friends or relatives at home to complete the forms for them and email them to reception where they're staying and getting them printed off.

[quote shinynewapple21]@junebirthdaygirl where did you go to? We had to show ours at departure airport before we were allowed to fly and also when we arrived in Spain . [/quote]
We flew to Faro in Portugal and back from Dublin. All lined up with our PLF and Covid certs..no one looked at them. Obviously if there is an issue with someone having Covid on the plane we can be located. But since we are vaccinated and so don't have to isolate there is hardly much point.

I agree with you OP.I've been helping friends who were struggling - mainly as don't have a laptop or printer. They both hav annual, hand son jobs and could not have navigates everything on a phone.

I think you are right op and it goes beyond digital literacy and not just old people. But this is Mumsnet. People will say their X year old gran or dad can do things online so obviously everyone can and whoever can't it's their very own fault and it's incomprehensible that they can't and nothing absolutely nothing should be done to support such people because it's their very own fault and this is Mumsnet.
Age, disability, disadvantage betc can all make form filling and especially online form filling overwhelming. And even when people say people in their 80s have had computers for decades the truth is that many people loose various skills including confidence as they age so am not sure whether giving the example of old people is as out of order as some say it is

Totally agree! I am very computer literate but i was surprised at how much of a faff it was. I spent quite a while showing my parents for their recent holiday. My dad managed to do it but it took him hours.
My MIL wants to go abroad but cannot
Do any online stuff. This has stopped her going.

I think it depends on where you are travelling to.
We definitely found the Greek form to be straightforward and short but have seen that the Spanish ones is a bit of a nightmare!
The UK form was straight forward but we definitely needed the printed versions of the vaccination cert to make it easier and had codes written out etc.

It was definitely a lot easier having everything printed out!

"I went to a gig last night , in Wales where we have to have Covid passports 🙄. Poor young guy didn’t have a smart phone and got turned away. Felt so sorry for him. He had his vaccinations card but that wasn’t good enough apparently. What difference does it make"

I shouldnt imagine people who have been treated like this are going to be too eager to follow any new or regurgitated restrictions that may come in if this is the thanks they are going to get.

My mother and father recently went to Gran Canaria where my mum filled out lal the aforementioned paperwork online.

However, whatsaap apparently is too complicated. I think it's a case of priorities

But didn’t even people who had physical jobs start getting home computers? My family were pretty mainstream adopters, definitely not cutting edge, and I’ve had a computer in my house for the last 40 years.

I think at the moment it’s certainly difficult. Rules are constantly changing, they’re different for every country that you are both coming from and arriving at and there is no single website that can give you all the information you need. I consider myself pretty computer literate and still spent almost an entire day sorting out all the tests, paperwork, passes etc. Then when I returned home (this was when you still had to quarantine after returning home from abroad) I discovered the nearest Randox drop box was a 90 minute drive away. No one from 119 or Randox could tell me whether having the day 2 arrive late and be received on day 3 if I posted it or whether me driving for 3 hours would be the better option. Both said I simply wasn’t allowed to do either but I was not given any kind of alternative other than ask someone to do it for me which I had already told them was impossible.

I helped friend with PLF. He cannot write very well or fill in forms. He doesn't have a smart phone or computer.

He got some help from relatives to do the PLF from Poland. Digitally excluded

He is a manual labourer and English is not his first language. He helps me with garden in exchange for help with form filling and admin.

I agree the additional bureaucracy and inconsistency is a right pain in the arse for everyone. But what did illiterate/non-computer literate/learning disabled people do re going on foreign holidays before Covid and how has this changed now? Can't have been easy for them before, surely they must have used a travel agent or other assistance, and can they not do the same now?

I discovered the nearest Randox drop box was a 90 minute drive away. No one from 119 or Randox could tell me whether having the day 2 arrive late and be received on day 3 if I posted it or whether me driving for 3 hours would be the better option

But they weren't the only provider. When we sorted our day 2 tests there were three clearly labelled buttons on the website. One where you return a test by post, one where you had to physically take it to a drop off location and one where you went to a site where you had the test there and it was collected by courier to go to the processing lab.

If you wanted one where you had to actually go/take your sample somewhere, it was easy to find out where before you booked it and if this wasn't suitable you could pick from one of the thousands of others offering the service, including clicking a link to bring up a map of the nearest places to your address.

I went to a gig last night , in Wales where we have to have Covid passports 🙄. Poor young guy didn’t have a smart phone and got turned away. Felt so sorry for him. He had his vaccinations card but that wasn’t good enough apparently. What difference does it make

If covid passports are a requirement in Wales, I expect that the requirements are clearly stated on an official government website and the website for the venue. A handwritten card that I'm sure you can get copies of from ebay proves nothing.

I get that some, mainly older and/or poorer people, either don't have the technology or experience to do things online, but the fact is that this is the way of the world these days, and has been for about a decade or two, so if you are physically, mentally and financially capable of travelling abroad, going to gigs etc, you really do need to put some effort into getting yourself up to speed and taking what help is available from friends, family, courses. There's even banks these days who will help people get familiar with technology.

@DriftingBlue

But didn’t even people who had physical jobs start getting home computers? My family were pretty mainstream adopters, definitely not cutting edge, and I’ve had a computer in my house for the last 40 years.

Since 1981? I think that makes you pretty early adopters of technology.

My mum managed the PLF to come to Belgium, though we did the one going back to the UK with her - it wasn't easy. There was a lot of looking for information and numbers and QR codes in emails that wasn't always easy to find and upload. My mum can use a smartphone but she sometimes gets flustered when under pressure (like at border control when there's a queue of cars waiting behind you) so she decided to print everything off rather than have to try using new-to-her apps that might not work. She did need help from her neighbour booking pre-travel and day 2 tests, though - apparently not an easy system to navigate.

I understand that it was all set up in a hurry, but since these look like they're all going to be around for a while, surely the various governments could now do some useablity testing with different groups of people to make sure they're not excluding people from travel inadvertently.

My parents are desperate for a break. But I know the level of digital literacy needed will be beyond them.
I feel that the current system is very much stacked towards people with high levels of digital literacy and so it is not equitably accessible to all.
I realise many if these systems have been hastily put into place- but it would be good if they could consider alternative ways of managing all the bureaucracy to widen access. I have recently travelled to Spain and Greece and I work in a senior position in my company - it took me over an hour each time to do all the paperwork, upload to the right portals, save in the right place on my phone, have all the Q R codes ready etc, etc. I didnt find it easy tbh 😬

Going on holiday in the UK would seem to be an easier option for your parents then.

I can maybe buy into people in their 80s possibly not being computer literate, but everyone below that, including people in their 70s have used computers actively for a long time now.

Really? Not everyone in their 70s, or maybe even younger, would have used computers actively for a long time, or even at all. Not everyone wants to, and there are certainly plenty of jobs where people aren't required to use computers.

I have just come back from Mauritius.

I am not massively computer literate but I filled my randox registration in and it took me approx 5 minutes. The same with my passenger locator form.

They are not super user friendly but not overly complicated

@rookiemere
Uploading the proof of the vaccine was optional. I couldn't work out how to do it so I skipped that bit.

Made it much quicker.

If the doom mongers are right about power cuts this winter, it won’t matter how computer literate we all are, if there’s no electricity then we’re going to have to learn to live in a real and digital world. Its not good for national security or your business to be too reliant on power from the national grid.