To think only the computer literate can now go on a foreign holiday

[rookiemere]

We're just back from Tenerife and had a wonderful time, but oh my goodness the online forms to fill in were not easy for either Spain or UK, nor was the Randox registration for our PCR tests on return ( in Scotland).

I consider myself to be reasonably computer literate, but I was very grateful for some prompts I found on a Facebook help group. It took me an hour for each passenger locator for, and another hour roughly for three PCR tests ( plus an additional half hour to drive to a drop box as apparently they don't accept Royal Mail boxes anymore).

I get why the documentation is needed, so I'm not against that per se, but the fact it must be done on a device means that some people may not have that and are now forced to buy a smart phone which seems unfair.

You also need to be pretty literate to interpret the questions, so again could be tricky for some.

So my AIBU is, is it right that the form can only be completed online ?

We just hit back and it was absolutely bonkers !! So complex

Friend of mine is 53 and hopeless with IT. She had no idea about QR codes and cannot imagine her being able to fill in all the PLFs etc.

I agree with you OP, it's not inclusive & assumes everyone has an up to date smartphone or iPad. Paper based options should be available for those who need them.

@lomoloko

There are lots and lots of people who cannot fill in forms online, for all kinds of reasons. It's simply not good enough to write off huge sections of society in this way. It's not about sympathy! We all need to be able to participate in society. Some reasons someone might not be able to fill in a form:

No internet - 7% of households in the UK are not online at all
No device or device too old to load/process form -- stats too complex here but some chunk of people are on devices that are too old to properly interact with most pages
No vision or low vision and the form isn't written correctly so cannot be used with a screenreader -- 1.7 million people live with sight loss in England
Poor literacy -- the average reading age of a UK adult is nine years old
Learning disability -- this is 1.2 MILLION people
Digital skills as I explained earlier
Fine motor control -- despite tap target guidelines and rest space design patterns, most forms are still unusable for many people with tremor

I could go on all day... These people, millions of people, are all part of our society and deserve to be considered.

Scotland has a programme called connecting Scotland which gives free devices and internet (and all necessary tech support) to those digitally excluded and/or on a low income which is definitely helping to address the barriers.

For all the smart arses on here saying "ah people should just learn how to navigate an online world..". What if they can't? Learning difficulties, too old and lacking in confidence, maybe. Ah well, too bad eh?

@lomoloko

There are lots and lots of people who cannot fill in forms online, for all kinds of reasons. It's simply not good enough to write off huge sections of society in this way. It's not about sympathy! We all need to be able to participate in society. Some reasons someone might not be able to fill in a form:

No internet - 7% of households in the UK are not online at all
No device or device too old to load/process form -- stats too complex here but some chunk of people are on devices that are too old to properly interact with most pages
No vision or low vision and the form isn't written correctly so cannot be used with a screenreader -- 1.7 million people live with sight loss in England
Poor literacy -- the average reading age of a UK adult is nine years old
Learning disability -- this is 1.2 MILLION people
Digital skills as I explained earlier
Fine motor control -- despite tap target guidelines and rest space design patterns, most forms are still unusable for many people with tremor

I could go on all day... These people, millions of people, are all part of our society and deserve to be considered.

Those with poor literacy or learning disability would have problems with paper forms anyway

@legosunqueen

I agree with you OP, it's not inclusive & assumes everyone has an up to date smartphone or iPad. Paper based options should be available for those who need them.

I agree with this.

@Needtostopfretting

Friend of mine is 53 and hopeless with IT. She had no idea about QR codes and cannot imagine her being able to fill in all the PLFs etc.

See this is the kind of thing I cannot fathom. "Hopeless with IT" ... she was in her early 30s when the web became a "thing" and 53 isn't too late to learn. She could have another 50 years to live in a world that isn't going to get any less digital.

@user1497207191 Yes true. But there are ways to simplify forms and still get the information needed.

@Needtostopfretting

Friend of mine is 53 and hopeless with IT. She had no idea about QR codes and cannot imagine her being able to fill in all the PLFs etc.

Unless she gets competent, she’s really going to struggle in the years/decades to come, and the longer she leaves it, the harder she’ll find it to learn.

@jimmyhill I didnt know about QR codes till last year. If you don't go places that use them, why would you. And until covid I had never seen them anywhere.

I told my reasonably techie DH that if I died while On holiday my body would get home but he would be stuck there as he wouldn’t have a clue what to do with regards to the forms and stuff to get home 😂😂
To be fair I did do everything so that way I know it’s all correct and I like the way Jet 2 did everything by email and text including transfers and updating you with info

I work with much younger people (than 'the elderly') who are not particularly computer literate; it's not always about age.

A bit of a tangent. I help people with Universal credit and the digital divide is evident and can cause a lot of hardship. A lot of people relied on libraries to access their universal credit account so as soon as Covid hit had big problems.

There are many claimants (young and old) that aren’t confident online for something that will affect their whole income. Many rely on mobiles and cheaper ones have small screens.

This article is about young people and the limitations some have online
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.liverpool.ac.uk/2020/03/17/not-all-young-people-are-digital-natives-inequality-hugely-limits-experiences-of-technology/amp/

Not just holidays.

We’re having problems with taking MIL and FIL to a rugby match at the Principality (Millenium) stadium in Cardiff.

They’ve introduced a new ticketing app since we applied for tickets through our club earlier this year. Each adult has to have their own ticket on their own device. Both of the IL’s have very old smart phones and can’t download the app. The Welsh Rugby Union aren’t being at all helpful at finding a way around this.

For all those saying we should all be living our lives online these days; as computers have been around so long > With the absolute reliance on technolgy, what will you do when networks go down? What will you do when there is no access to this technology, perhaps due to cyber wars?

@itsnotmeitsu

For all those saying we should all be living our lives online these days; as computers have been around so long > With the absolute reliance on technolgy, what will you do when networks go down? What will you do when there is no access to this technology, perhaps due to cyber wars?

Well planes won’t be flying either do travel docs probably won’t be critical [sceptical].

In the meantime what are you doing?

I do wonder how many of the posters berating others about their lack of technical ability etc have actually travelled abroad in the last couple of months and experienced
the forms and processes we are talking about !

I've had a computer on my desk at work since 1979. That doesn't mean that I am able to keep totally up to speed on all the new stuff. I've had a smartphone for several years, and I genuinely cannot remember how most of it works. People can show me (and have done so) over and over again, but it just doesn't sink in any more, no matter how hard I try.

“They’ve introduced a new ticketing app since we applied for tickets through our club earlier this year. Each adult has to have their own ticket on their own device. Both of the IL’s have very old smart phones and can’t download the app. The Welsh Rugby Union aren’t being at all helpful at finding a way around this.”

I encountered this last summer when going to “The Hundred” Cricket. They also wanted everyone to have ticket on own ECB app. My phone was playing up and was rebooting itself at regular intervals. Husband got to gate and realised he hadn’t fully downloaded the ticket into the app and reception was very poor round the ground. Just showing the tickets on an email (OR EVEN PAPER!) wasn’t enough for them. Really put us off going and we regularly go to cricket.

Also, I ate out on Friday, needed to use QR code and website to order. Ordering page was squished up on phone so all the fields for credit card stuff were overlapping. Took ages to second guess how to fill it in.

Far too many of these systems aren’t fit for use and are poorly tested (Husband and I used to work in IT).

Don’t get me started on how it impacts on the elderly, learning disabled etc.

Yes I have found some of the apps to order on are terrible and very hard to use. And very few seem to meet disability standards which are law.

I agree OP. There is no way my 75 year old parents would be able to do this. We would have to talk them through every stage, and not sure how they would cope at the airport. Despite our best efforts, they are really not computer-literate.

@LittleBearPad

I'd imagine many elderly people would have great difficulty navigating what is required.

Comments like this are so patronising. Why the assumption that elderly people can’t use the internet. It’s been around 20 odd years.

Oh do stop with the judgement. I have worked with older people for the last 10 years. Although it is getting better due to lock down, sadly older older adults are often not great with accepting and using technology

Elderly people I know who went on courses can do a few simple things like skype relatives and send emails. They are online but not really what I would call computer literate.

People need to get with the program and just become computer illiterate (people who are fully compos mentis, obviously). I have very little time for people who say "oh I just don't do tech", and i refuse to go out of my way to help or accommodate them. Not sorry

I think this is a little unfair. The new requirements would probably stop my parents (82 and 75) ever travelling abroad again, unless DP and I did all their paperwork for them.

Despite all our best efforts over a decade or more (DP works in IT and I’m a teacher so pretty good at explaining stuff clearly) my parents remain almost entirely incapable of using any tech whatsoever in an effective way. They are forever struggling to open documents, forgetting passwords, being taken in by crude scams etc. We’ve had to install Team Viewer on our own home PC so we can talk them through their regular ‘IT disasters.’

They both have all their faculties, but like many of their generation they received only a rudimentary education (I’d describe them as functionally literate and numerate but little more than that) and struggle to take on new information. My mum in particular spent many years as a SAHM and had little exposure to tech in the workplace.

They’re also struggling with the shift to eConsult and Zoom for GP appointments - just can’t navigate it for themselves.

I very much doubt they’re alone, and I do feel that the extra admin risks disenfranchising certain groups.