To think only the computer literate can now go on a foreign holiday

[rookiemere]

We're just back from Tenerife and had a wonderful time, but oh my goodness the online forms to fill in were not easy for either Spain or UK, nor was the Randox registration for our PCR tests on return ( in Scotland).

I consider myself to be reasonably computer literate, but I was very grateful for some prompts I found on a Facebook help group. It took me an hour for each passenger locator for, and another hour roughly for three PCR tests ( plus an additional half hour to drive to a drop box as apparently they don't accept Royal Mail boxes anymore).

I get why the documentation is needed, so I'm not against that per se, but the fact it must be done on a device means that some people may not have that and are now forced to buy a smart phone which seems unfair.

You also need to be pretty literate to interpret the questions, so again could be tricky for some.

So my AIBU is, is it right that the form can only be completed online ?

@DriftingBlue

I can maybe buy into people in their 80s possibly not being computer literate, but everyone below that, including people in their 70s have used computers actively for a long time now.

Yes, but using computers for certain aspects of work that you were confident about 10 or 15 years ago isn't the same as filling in those types of forms which can be stressful and you're more likely to get flustered. So for instance my mum is 75, she was an accountant and retired 10 years ago, would have used a computer daily in her job and she often uses a tablet and emails etc now, I know she would find these forms difficult and it would totally put her off going away as she's not confident on the computer and would definitely get stressed and flustered. My dad uses the computer more than I would but I think even he'd struggle too. My MIL is 53 and she couldn't even turn on a computer or a tablet, she even struggles with the basics of a mobile phone so it's not necessarily an age thing either.

It's not an age thing. It's an exposure thing. The friends I was helping get away are in their forties. One is a scaffolder, the other works in a supermarket. They don't really use computers in their day to day lives. They only have smartphones and only really use them for social media. They aren't widely travelled, having come from economically disadvantaged backgrounds (one grew up in foster care), so were stumped by a test booking site, for example, that wouldn't take their phone numbers. It was a site that operates internationally and hence wanted phone numbers in 00447 format, not 07XXXX which is what they know their phone numbers to be, they had no idea about the international format. There are lots of people like this. It was a real eye opener to me about the technological/educational divide that exists in the UK.

@Sonex It's not an age thing. It's an exposure thing.

I fully agree. But given that, people should start getting used to apps etc as it's the future and no one is going to put the genie back in the bottle. The use of apps etc will continue to increase. People need to start using the simple apps, simply to get used to them, and then they'll be in a better position to do the more complicated things.

My MIL (in her 80s) needed a consultation with a hospital specialist in the height of covid, so it was an online one with webcam. My MIL barely used the phone and basically just sent the odd text and had never used any apps. The hospital administrator/secretary talked her through how to set up the app, texted the link etc., and got it up and running before passing her over to the specialist - took about 5 minutes of the secretary guiding her through it. We were quite impressed really but clearly the secretary was doing a lot of it as she was very clear and confident in her instructions.

It's not an age thing. It's an exposure thing

Yes agree, and also (principally IMO) general education levels. That’s what I was getting at with my post upthread: it’s not my parents’ age that’s preventing them from accessing tech, it’s that their overall education level is deficient. Both left school at 15 with no qualifications, and they lack the transferable skills that are necessary to grasp new and unfamiliar concepts. Plus they haven’t been exposed enough in the workplace to make basic IT skills become natural and intuitive.

I namechanged because I spent an hour grappling with the Scottish NHS passport app.last night. I'm not particularly stupid, honest!

@Elieza

My 80 year old mother couldn’t fill in a form online as she doesn’t have a computer. Or indeed a mobile phone. So it may be a stereotype which is offensive to some and inaccurate to others but it’s true of her. She’s fab incidentally. Courageous, clever and funny. Just not into IT. Likes to speak to a human being.

Same for my mother. She is 86. She has a small interest in some technology and uses an Alexa as she finds it much easier than the controls of a traditional radio or CD player for her arthritic fingers.

She doesn't actually have a smartphone or computer though. Just a barely used iPad which she relies on my sister or I to help with and hardly touches herself. She'd recoil in horror at the idea of online forms.

I agree with OP's sentiments. I thought this while filling out Passenger Locator Forms during a recent holiday in Malta. The whole system assumes that everyone has access to and is able to use a computer or smartphone. There are a (dwindling, I should think) percentage of people for whom that is not the case. That doesn't mean they are stupid or that they should be discriminated against. A paper based system is still needed as a backup at times.

I agree the system seems to be quite impenetrable for some. My parents are going away in a couple of weeks and Mum has been nearly in tears trying to sort it. They do use computers for some parts of their lives, but have been retired for well over a decade and are a long way from our 'digital native' experience for those younger than about 50.

They are generally smart people, and pick up things and use them regularly, e.g. the online booking system for their golf club, or the askmyGP system. But those are systems they have learnt and use regularly. They're still not comfortable with online banking or supermarket shopping. And this week the COVID online admin that they are still only part way through is close to beating them. Those who are starting from a lower baseline would have no chance.

So yes I agree, international travel is now going to have a series of additional barriers for those who struggle with online forms, either due to capability/capacity or simply access to tech.

@LittleBearPad

comments like this are so patronising. Why the assumption that elderly people can’t use the internet. It’s been around 20 odd years.

So? Doesn't mean everyone can use it. Some people who are retired now, were in jobs (when the internet started widely being used,) that never required them to use the internet, or even a computer.

@jimmyhill

Indeed it's ageist. The 83 year old mum upthread could have been downloading her favourite Vera Lynn songs onto her MP3 player when she was still in her 50s.

I doubt very much that ANYONE would have been downloading anything in the early 1990s! And I seriously doubt anyone owned an MP3 player then. And how ageist to assume a woman in her 50s in the 1990s liked Vera Lynn! Why would she not like Motorhead or Bob Dylan or David Bowie. How patronising to assume she would have liked Vera Lynn!

@rookiemere Take no notice of the ridiculous comments (from some) on here. It's not 'ageist' to assume elderly people cannot use the internet. Age UK states 4.2 million people over 65 have never used it, and do not own a computer. That's more than a THIRD of over 65s!

It's ridiculous to assume anyone and everyone is au fait with computers, and can easily use them. I feel really sorry for the generation left behind, (born before 1955.) because everything is eventually going online, and it's inaccessible for some over 65s, and many of them cannot keep up, and as has been said, have never used a computer, or the internet...

I know a few people who no longer have a bank in their little town, and have to go 15-20 miles to the nearest one. Some of them are having to get younger family members to help them with day to day living now because of everything going online.

Yes, I know some over 65s are computer literate and have a smartphone etc etc, but some do NOT. The ones getting angry at the assumption that pensioners cannot use/struggle with using a computer and the internet, are either over 65 themselves, (and they fell insulted by it,) or they're the same ones who claim all the women in their 'social circle' started having babies in their mid 40s, if you say the average age to have a first baby is 29.

No matter what you say, someone on here will say something contrary. Pay no attention. You have every right to feel sorry for people over 65, because many of them struggle with modern technology, and especially with the internet - and computers. Not ageist - just a fact.

I know some people only in their 50s, who are dreading the landline being taken away permanently, because their mobile phone signal is shit, and they dread being forced into an electric car too. And they also worry about losing the banks, because they still do need to go in sometimes.

Seriously, we need to be able to discuss people over 60/65 on here, and any issues there may be, without the usual tedious 'stop being ageist' line that is always trotted out in the first 3 or 4 replies!

I'm just back from a week abroad and DH and I found the UK PLF forms tricky, and the Portuguese ones baffling as our nhs vaccination QR code would not upload . Turns out an older version of the QR code was fine but the recently generated one would not work for no apparent reason
. We both have higher degrees and a high degree of computer literacy .

The UK Passenger Locator form this summer drove me to actual despair. I swear that was written by a barely literate intern and has clearly had no error checking applied or higher checks for grammatical or logical accuracy (at least from the version I saw in August). I am in my forties and work in technology in a very technical role and I have a Master's in Compute Science. I had both a laptop and a smartphone on me, with versions of all documents scanned or saved electronically, both on my hard disk and in cloud accounts accessible from anywhere. It was still a massive faff and PITA going to Spain and back with a family. How are people that don't use computers every day, whatever age, going to navigate all that easily.

I haven't found it difficult (perhaps I was lucky). But I did find it stressful, waiting for kids pcr results to come back, ensuring all forms were done and pass locator forms for Spain had to be printed.
It's a price I am happy to pay to go on holiday though.

Just to add, it is quite clear private companies know there are plenty of older people not online.
My dad gets plenty of onspec catalogues sent to him advertising goods with a telephone order line advertised on it. These companies know they cant expect everyone to order online. But our government expect people to.

Also about the iPad - my dad used an iPad. His tremor means that is no longer possible. As people age their physical ability to use technology can decline.

@LittleDandelionClock I have family who live in Sussex. One of them lives in a village which is known for having terrible mobile phone signal. I am guessing the cost of sorting out for a small number of people is too high for internet companies.

You are right OP. Just wait until cash disappears. Technology is not all that reliable anyway. When it fails it is a disaster. I find the long forms a massive inconvenience and little by little we are giving all our personal details to private companies.VERYFLY, PCR labs for example. If you fill in forms online they should be shorter than they are.

Funnily enough I caught up with a friend yesterday and he was saying that his parents had just been abroad to see their other son, he said they booked business class tickets but when they got to the lounge everything had to be done on an app neither of them had smart phones. They couldn’t order drinks/food etc and couldn’t get up to wander and find someone to speak to. It was over an hour before they could flag someone down and even then it wasn’t straight forward.
The world is rapidly moving to embrace tech and shun human contact, it’s not so easy for those who aren’t as digitally up to date.

Although I did also wonder if the forms for travel were difficult on purpose to discourage travel. But I'm not sure if the government is organised enough for that to be a deliberate action.

It's not just our country though that have them online @ConfusedBear , although I suppose it's easier to access friends and family to help when completing in UK.
I think these forms will be with us until at least next Summer.

We are booked to go next month and the tour operator has stated its rep is on site on Fridays to help with the passenger locator forms needed for Saturday (flights are only on Saturdays) and there is free WiFi plus computers for those without phones.

@TheChosenTwo

Funnily enough I caught up with a friend yesterday and he was saying that his parents had just been abroad to see their other son, he said they booked business class tickets but when they got to the lounge everything had to be done on an app neither of them had smart phones. They couldn’t order drinks/food etc and couldn’t get up to wander and find someone to speak to. It was over an hour before they could flag someone down and even then it wasn’t straight forward. The world is rapidly moving to embrace tech and shun human contact, it’s not so easy for those who aren’t as digitally up to date.

That is anti disability legislation. Not everyone can physically use apps on smartphones. There needs to be court cases.

@gogohm which tour operator is that?

@Sonex

It's not an age thing. It's an exposure thing. The friends I was helping get away are in their forties. One is a scaffolder, the other works in a supermarket. They don't really use computers in their day to day lives. They only have smartphones and only really use them for social media. They aren't widely travelled, having come from economically disadvantaged backgrounds (one grew up in foster care), so were stumped by a test booking site, for example, that wouldn't take their phone numbers. It was a site that operates internationally and hence wanted phone numbers in 00447 format, not 07XXXX which is what they know their phone numbers to be, they had no idea about the international format. There are lots of people like this. It was a real eye opener to me about the technological/educational divide that exists in the UK.

Agree with all of this. I'm 35 and we had a home PC from me being about 4. I remember getting a 'how to type' game and a maths game when I was about 5. I had computer programmes called creative writer and fine artist. I taught myself basic code to change my MySpace page when I was a teenager etc. I got my own computer in my bedroom when I was about 14. I'm rusty now and not up to date but would be able to navigate what I needed, and if I couldn't, I'd Google how to.

DH is 43, has never used computers, and wouldn't have the first clue. He had basic literacy skills, dyslexia and finds form filling in very stressful. He's always had physical jobs with very little use for computer literacy. He's an intelligent man but finds technology daunting. If I wasn't around, he'd ask someone else to do it for him. He doesn't use (or trust) internet banking and locks himself out of his emails at least once a week. It's frustrating. I've looked into computer literacy courses and he has agreed that it's probably a good idea.

It's all arguments over anecdotes. Really there needs to be some sort of statistics to determine real literacy - at a working level, not just oh can open emails if accompanied.

For every literate 80 year old there seems to be an illiterate 50 year old - who really would be have 20/30 years old and not incapable of learning when it all came about.

It's not a new storm, it's been on the horizon a while. Some have definitely been resisting it. Take the poster that has to help their colleagues every month to get their paycheck. There is very little reason why otherwise competent adults - who no doubt learn other parts of their job can't learn to complete a step by step task of getting their payslip - even if they can't master an excel doc or troubleshoot. Oh yeah, because they can get another adult to do it for them.

Yes, there should be provision for those that can't and never can't. But similar how we presume the world can read and write (please read and sign your job contract, fill in this form), there is starting to be a point where the general presumption is a person computer literate, to an ever increasing degree - maybe in 50 years time well all have to be coders - programing AI to map our driveway terrain, or our robots the layout of our houses.

I hope someone will help me if I need it, but likewise don't expect the world to stop its march because I can't catch up.

Technology was/is supposed to make our lives easier. In many ways it's making people's lives harder. It has to be simple and easy to navigate, and not evolve too quickly, or many people get left behind.

Not everybody has friends or family to help them 'get up to speed'. Yes, you can learn how to access technology through perhaps a library, if the library's still in existence and has the volunteers to keep it going. My mum learned how to use a computer this way, but it was basic, as in she was able to send me countless mad emails and respond to mine [not so mad ones].

Even if people can afford a smartphone, it doesn't mean they can afford an internet subscription. I don't think you can make yourself particularly internet literate without handy use of a computer to practise on. My sister was a case in point. Luckily for her she had someone move into the adjacent flat who was computer literate who befriended her and let her use his laptop. When she died this year we found that he'd stolen nearly £45,000 from her over the course of several months. She was very naive and trusted people who she thought was a friend.

I realise this is a different topic, but my point is technology/computers/apps, etc are not all 'technology is great, just get on board with it.' There are always going to be people who find life more difficult because of it. Why are we saying, 'Oh, well that's your problem. Hard luck because you're not helping yourself'?

My DP struggled a lot with this kind of stuff. He attended a computer course that taught in detail how to use lots of different programmes, but because he wasn't using every day, he quickly forgot it. It wasn't until he had a job where he had to get to grips with using the computer that he learned how to and retained it.
I think this si the real issue for those who don't know how to. You don't learn how to use it by using it to fill in an online form a couple of times a year. It does need ongoing use. And as you get older, you don't retain learning as easily.