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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder who will look after us in old age?

572 replies

malificent7 · 22/10/2021 23:16

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money.
They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

OP posts:
Doingtheboxerbeat · 26/10/2021 02:43

I got all the way to page 3 and not one poster mentioned being child free. I'm sure by this point someone has brought up that these people won't need to worry about being a burden to anyone.
Another vote for dying with dignity.

gofg · 26/10/2021 04:07

I don't have sons I only have DDs and I would expect them to care for their mother like I care for them now

@Ledition - There is a very big difference here - you chose to give birth to your children, they didn't choose to be born, and the fact that you did have them doesn't mean they should be beholden to you for life. As for seeing your grandparents being cared for, that is completely different to you doing the actual caring, and you have no idea what sort of situation you could be dealing with.

Your posts are very unpleasant with all your talk of "what good families do" intimating that everyone who doesn't feel as you do is cruel and unkind. I feel sorry for your poor DDs, who apparently will have no control over their lives in the future. In my experience good parents would never expect their children to care for them (I'm not talking about a bit of shopping, cleaning, cooking etc. by the way). All I can say is thank goodness I'm not part of your family.

pointythings · 26/10/2021 07:38

Ledition I also only have DDs and I would not expect them to care for me. They did not ask to be born, I chose that. My responsibility, my consequences, they get to choose how to live their lives. Expecting your DDs (why is it always DDs?) to care for you as some kind of payback is what's selfish.

Fernhilde · 26/10/2021 07:47

@Doingtheboxerbeat

I got all the way to page 3 and not one poster mentioned being child free. I'm sure by this point someone has brought up that these people won't need to worry about being a burden to anyone. Another vote for dying with dignity.
I did. I have no extended family either. What I'm not understanding here is why so many posters are talking about assisted dying as opposed to strategies for increasing staff numbers in care homes so that the staff can provide the quality care they want to? Why is death more desirable to people than improving care? Genuine question.
MamsellMarie · 26/10/2021 08:29

I was really annoyed that gov didnt go with the limit on payments around 2011, the Dilnott report. . So everyone pays up to 37,000, I think it was. So it encourages those without savings, whom our tax pays for, to at least save that amount and then possibly be able to choose their care. Then they paid 7-10,000 p a for food, accommodation etc. The limit on how much is excluded from care home fees was going to be 100,000 I think
Obviously that isn't enough nowadays but if everyone knew the top limit they had to pay they could save it n a special account and could possibly pay it early so gov had money to play with then repay it to rellies on death. I think many people would be happy to believe they'd paid up front and it was covered. It would be reassuring.
Instead everyone falls over themselves to protect money from inheritance tax and exorbitant care home fees. And the tax payer will foot the bill if there is no property.

Mummyto2rugrats · 26/10/2021 08:31

Tbh another vote for assisted dying I don't want to be a burden but I honestly hope I am like my gran 97 still lives in her own home does her own housework etc she has only just got a stair lift installed because lock down paid a price on her motility, prior to that she was always walking to the shops and church. Her great aunt lived independently until 100 and then assisted living until she passed at 104.
So yeah I pray I'm like her she is a force to be reckoned with, so independent and capable. And we are all grateful we still have her.

My DH and I have discussed that if fil passes before mil he wants her with us as he doesn't think she will cope on her own mentally more than physically. But then my mum is on her own and does fine but is in good health and already surpassed the age her mum said she would never live past and didn't. Again very independent strong person which I hope to God stays that way.

I just know that even our parents will think like us, we don't want to be a burden and we will do what we can.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 26/10/2021 08:33

What I'm not understanding here is why so many posters are talking about assisted dying as opposed to strategies for increasing staff numbers in care homes so that the staff can provide the quality care they want to? Why is death more desirable to people than improving care? Genuine question.

Because that's not going to solve the problem with people existing, not even living miserable, relying to someone for their most basic needs with no hope of getting better. What's the point of that? And the cost? Why spend hundreds of thousands artificially prolonging the life of someone who doesn't even know they are alive and doesn't want to be?

MamsellMarie · 26/10/2021 08:39

My Aunt who had been a nurse all her life, which is relevant here I think, once too frail to manage was admitted to hosp and refused food and drink. Died after a short time.

TravelLost · 26/10/2021 08:41

not even living miserable, relying to someone for their most basic needs with no hope of getting better.

Ww is choosing that life is miserable?
Are people who are quadriplegic automatically miserable?

What people have been talking about on this thread is dementia. And tbf dementia is scary and hard. Certainly for the family around them. And probably to the person themselves.
But physical stuff like cancer, MS and many other life limiting illnesses? That’s a very different ball Park and I think we need to be very careful about assumptions. Things like needing care basic stuff or being double incontinent = a life not worth living because there are actually many people with disabilities who would fall into that category and who would strongly disagree with that. And rightly so.

Maverickess · 26/10/2021 08:47

What I'm not understanding here is why so many posters are talking about assisted dying as opposed to strategies for increasing staff numbers in care homes so that the staff can provide the quality care they want to? Why is death more desirable to people than improving care? Genuine question.

I'd like to know that too, I am all for assisted dying in the right circumstances, and for this trend of letting people die in pain and distress to stop, and also for not keeping people going until the bitter end just because the science exists to do so. But, no one ever wants to talk about how we can improve care at the sharp end, now, or in the near future.
All I can think is that it usually only touches people's lives for a few years if a family member is in need of care, it's important then, but becomes less so, or they've yet to face it in their own lives. And that the care workers aren't really seen as 'good' enough to have an opinion on any of this, when we're the second best placed group to ask what's going wrong and how to fix it, of course the best group to do that are the people using the service, and so many have no voice, and the voice they do have (their carers) is studiously ignored in favour of the care providers (who are making money from it all) and government (who want to spend as little as possible).

@Ledition
You're being really rather offensive towards people who aren't in a position to care for their families, there absolutely are people who 'dump and run' with regards to their relatives that need care (and tbh social workers are probably the worst at that) but overwhelmingly the families I see bringing their relatives onto my unit are probably in worse shape than the person themselves.
Dementia reduces the need for sleep as it changes the brain, the brain is in 'fight or flight' mode for much of the time, which leads to a lot of activity and not all of it safe. Compounding that is also the need for nursing interventions by qualified staff (RMN or RGN) and then care support from care staff. If people need nursing care and they're not being cared for by a qualified nurse, then their needs aren't being met, full stop. No matter how much they're loved or adored, or how kind you are. Nursing care is on the increase due to the same reason pure social care (care assistant led) is, the reasons discussed here. Even down to hoisting someone - there are very good reasons two people need to be present to do that.

My own GM would have needed nursing care had she lived through the stroke she had, I'm glad she didn't and as a family we withdrew intervention to save her and let nature take it's course at 84 and still independent to that point. I'm a carer and was then and my DM a nurse, when we asked about caring at home we were told that she needed 24 hours nursing care (she never made it out of hospital) and that 2 of us, one untrained in nursing, would not meet her needs. It was important to me that I care for my nan - but far more important she got her needs met properly.

DottyHarmer · 26/10/2021 08:49

I've realised it's pointless arguing with people who trumpet that they are going to be looking after their parents/in-laws who are currently in robust health . They sneer at the callous behaviour of those with some experience and talk about "my lovely mum".

What a rosy view of ageing and care. Sure, I have an aunt of a great age who is in fine fettle and an asset to have living with my cousin. Yes, there are care needs, but frankly as long as someone is compos mentis and can get to the loo it is doable.

But for every person like that there are many others who are definitely not. These people saying "I'd never put my parents in a home^ - just take a look at one, and say whether you would be able to look after, at home, some of the people the care home is dealing with. Men who are able-bodied yet have lost, with dementia, all sexual boundaries. So they are strong men and want to attack their female folk (sadly this happened to a friend's df). Try dealing with that at home when you have teenage dds. How about mil who started screaming 24/7. She lost the 24-hour clock so would be awake at any time. She attacked home carers.

Plus all those needing a hoist to move from bed to chair etc. Just leaving people in bed would result in horrible bedsores. I can imagine that a lot of people cared for at home are in a dreadful state due to lack of appropriate equipment or even physical strength of the carers.

MintJulia · 26/10/2021 08:53

There is a lot that we as individuals can do to reduce the need, and that's the obvious place to start.

Keeping healthy is essential. Two thirds of the population is overweight, reducing mobility and allowing diabetes, heart disease to develop. If we could put that right, the help available would probably be sufficient.
An average 60yo should still be able to walk 20 miles, jog 3 and swim 1.

Diet is the other issue. Reducing alcohol intake and promoting better food would help hugely. Ban smoking too.

Yes, illness inevitably comes but we could cut the need for care by 3/4, by holding it off for longer, if we just looked after ourselves better. So maybe you are asking the wrong question.

DottyHarmer · 26/10/2021 08:57

I said upthread, MintJulia, that the health thing is barking up the wrong tree. Of course it's great to be healthy, but it does not prolong the life of your brain. The pil were physically super healthy with great diets, playing tennis, swimming etc etc, but all this plus doing puzzles and having social interaction does not hold back dementia.

Yes, people will be routinely living till 120 in a few years' time. But for 30 of those years they will be vegetables.

Draculahhh · 26/10/2021 09:04

My husbands grandfather was diagnosed with terminal cancer and was given 6 months to live. Rather than experience a decline he chose assisted suicide.

He planned his own funeral, got all his affairs in order and had time to say goodbye to his family properly. (This is in the Netherlands)

This is how I want to go, I never want to get to a point where I am in daily pain or become a burden on my family.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 26/10/2021 09:04

Ww is choosing that life is miserable?
Are people who are quadriplegic automatically miserable?

Some maybe are, how do you know every single one of them is happy?

Why shouldn't people have a choice about their own body?

TravelLost · 26/10/2021 09:17

I didn’t say people shouldn’t have a choice over their own body.

I’m saying that no one should make an assumption that everyone will feel miserable, life not worth living if they are in that situation.
I’m also saying that being in that situation doesn’t affect only people who are at the end of their life but many others with disabilities.

We shouod never make that sort if choice for others not judge how they feel about their life. If they are ok with it and I refer that life to death then so be it TOO

bestcattoyintheworld · 26/10/2021 10:07

@Fernhilde the types of existence prescribed by medical staff now are totally unreasonable for many people and this isn't how they wish to spend their end months or years.

Often paralysed, unable to speak or not possessing the cognitive ability to even remember your own name. Being fed liquidised diet so you don't aspirate, fed via a PEG tube directly into your stomach, unable to have a bath or shower more than once a week, being filled with medications and antibiotics to keep you alive, being suctioned when you're choking on your own secretions during a chest infection, endless UTIs, pain, pressure damage, depression, being attended to by people who don't have the cognitive abilities or emotional intelligence to properly perform their role, nurses who are too lazy to administer pain relief. Staff who don't close the door when you're naked and vulnerable whilst being bed bathed. Staff who constantly moan or talk about their sex lives whilst delivering 'care'. Being stuck in front of a blaring TV all day with cartoons or Naked Attraction on. Having the radio blaring out Magic FM for the sake of the Staff. No fresh air and choking, sickly air fresheners pumping out chemicals to cover the smell of urine. I could go on.

This goes on in even the 'good' homes. You don't know what goes on behind closed doors and all that.

lollipoprainbow · 26/10/2021 10:46

There’s no point in living if you don’t have a life.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. My darling mum has advanced dementia and has no quality of life whatsoever, just sleeps all day in a chair. I hate seeing this once vibrant, capable, strong woman reduced to this and she would hate the indignity of it all too. I just want her to be at peace.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 26/10/2021 10:55

We shouod never make that sort if choice for others not judge how they feel about their life. If they are ok with it and I refer that life to death then so be it TOO

And giving people the choice how to live and end heir life is exactly that. What you are advocating is the opposite.

lollipoprainbow · 26/10/2021 10:59

Assisted dying won't work for advanced dementia as people won't be able to consent to it and they are the ones who need it most. The irony.

bunnybuggs · 26/10/2021 11:04

@midlifecrash

Those saying assisted dying - it’s quite a jump from needing help with cooking or washing to that! I favour people with severe terminal illness having that choice but it frightens me that this is already bandied around as a societal solution. In my experience people do want to continue living often far past the point where they’ve previously said they would. I think it’s absolutely natural to do this. This discussion should be about how care can be provided and care workers valued.
Exactly this - many 70 and 80 year olds just need a bit of extra help - and this should be available to them - no-one raises issues about extra help for children. Is an old persons life now worth less? End of life solutions should be reserved for those near the end of their life - not advocated as a solution to society failing to make provision for care
helpIhateclothesshopping · 26/10/2021 11:39

I think voluntary euthanasia will be legalised long before I'm elderly. I can never understand why animals (who get no say in the matter) are euthanized as the kind thing to do, yet people who have actively chosen to die, are not allowed. It's either kind or it isn't.
People can have advance directives that say "when I get to this point .... withdraw treatment" etc. I also think a lot of the tasks done in care homes will be done by robots in future, which may enable people to stay at home or with their families for longer.

Intercity225 · 26/10/2021 11:47

We stayed in a new house, on holiday through a cottage holiday company. While they did get a kingsize bed in two bedrooms, and a double in the other, none of the bedrooms had room for anything else beyond two bedside tables and a chest of drawers. There were no wardrobes - only a small hanging rail, enough for clothes for holiday; but nothing more.

We both said to ourselves, any family of four, could not take in an elderly relative, because the upstairs of the house was so small!

BackBackBack · 26/10/2021 11:56

@Doingtheboxerbeat I have no children so am currently caring for my DM with nobody to come after me. But that's fine because I will plan for this as part of the second stage of my life.

@Ledition saying that caring is a choice and that it's a simple matter of priority is incorrect and actually quite cruel. Numerous posters on this thread, including me, have given examples of where it is not possible to care for someone at home. And actually a very common reason for this is because the needs of the person requiring care cannot be safely met at home anymore. The first and most powerful tool in caring is compassion - perhaps you could allow some for people who have different situations to you?

MintJulia · 26/10/2021 12:02

DottyHarmer We do not yet understand what causes dementia but being healthy certainly helps some.

And it significantly reduces the respiratory diseases, amputations, heart attacks and strokes that cause so many disabilities.
Remaining healthy is absolutely a priority.

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