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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder who will look after us in old age?

572 replies

malificent7 · 22/10/2021 23:16

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money.
They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

OP posts:
NadiaVulvokov · 25/10/2021 03:22

Think the Japanese are doing a lot on home are robots as their population is ageing so rapidly.

gofg · 25/10/2021 06:04

The likelihood is that you would have to get on with it. Or you'd have to refuse to provide care - and I mean really refuse. That means not helping if he fell, not providing him with food or drink, not washing him, not laundering his clothes, not doing anything for him at all. Basically acting as if he did not live there at all. And during that time, wait for social services to respond.

I'm not in the UK, but why does anyone have to resort to this to get care for a loved one? Here you are assessed, and if they think you need care then you get care, as far as I'm aware no-one has to take this step. My late DM went into hospital after a fall, they were going to send her home I told them she wasn't really coping, they checked, and said yes she needed care so into a home she went. Something she always said would never happen, but she wouldn't have wanted me to look after her, and neither would my DF who lives in an apartment attached to a rest home. I don't actually know anyone who has to provide the level of care often mentioned on MN, except maybe a spouse and they do that because they want to.

gofg · 25/10/2021 06:12

I would not under any circumstances: dementia, incontinence, anything let someone else care for my mother.

How is someone with a full-time job and family commitments meant to do that, or someone with divorced parents both needing such a level of care? It's very easy to say this, not so easy to do for many. Neither of my DPs would have ever agreed to me doing it and if I had DCs I would rather chew my arm off than have them care for me.

pinkstripeycat · 25/10/2021 08:01

For those wanting to look after a parent, it’s harder than you think.
If your parent becomes incontinent how do you lift them and clean them up at the same time? You can’t
Sometimes they need turning regularly and you need 2 people so you don’t hurt your parent
Both of my grandparents (dh grandad & my Nan) were looked after by parents along with 3 times a day carers and both grandparents had to go in to a home eventually. My Nan for just a few weeks as she was near the end but it nearly killed my mum (who was 60 at the time) looking after her mother full time (they moved in together)
Unless they are healthy and mobile it’s virtually impossible to do it without at least 2 live in adults

the80sweregreat · 25/10/2021 08:01

I was flamed by some family members for not taking in my 96 year old dad
He died from covid in a care home over a year later after going in one.
The guilt is real, but circumstances meant I couldn't care for him.
It'll only be the women who will be ' expected ' to do the caring anyway I suppose , another stick to beat us with :(

the80sweregreat · 25/10/2021 08:28

Lots of people do not have any contact with parents , for many they will be on their own.

Roxy69 · 25/10/2021 08:29

@notanothertakeaway

All these rather flippant comments about assisted dying terrify me

Sadly, I think it will come in, due to lack of finances

And initially it will be for extreme / ckearcut cases

And then it will be watered down

And you may not feel so relaxed then

We should be supporting this elderly/ infirm, not killing them off

Agree totally. So easy to talk about assisted dying when you are young and fit. Having been a nurse, looked after both of my parents until death (and was glad to do it they gave me a wonderful childhood) and been a carer, I think you can only fully judge when the time arrives. I also think society is much more heartless today so any decisions need to.be made by a court with say 3 people who are not family to take the ultimate decision.Late parenting is also an added burden.
cptartapp · 25/10/2021 08:33

the80s but do you work? Have children or other responsibilities? Your dad wouldn't have let you take him in indefinitely anyway surely?? No decent parent would subject their busy adult DC to that role in the prime of their lives.
That would be a huge huge ask. No reason to be guilty.

the80sweregreat · 25/10/2021 08:34

I bet the courts wouldn't agree to assisted dying in so many cases as it's so controversial.
It would muddy the waters even more and just prolong some people's suffering.
It would be the get out clause to not allowing people a say in how they want to die.

TableFlowerss · 25/10/2021 08:36

Agree totally. So easy to talk about assisted dying when you are young and fit. Having been a nurse, looked after both of my parents until death (and was glad to do it they gave me a wonderful childhood) and been a carer, I think you can only fully judge when the time arrives. I also think society is much more heartless today so any decisions need to.be made by a court with say 3 people who are not family to take the ultimate decision.Late parenting is also an added burden

1- You chose nursing as a career so it’s easy for you to judge, but the reality is some people would really struggle with personal care etc… it’s not for everyone.

2 - You’re missing the point about who gets to decide. It’s the individual who is fully cognitively functional.

3 - To say people are heartless. That’s a heartless thing to say. Many people wouldn’t be able to do it for practical reasons.

the80sweregreat · 25/10/2021 08:37

I wasn't working many hours at the time, but I just didn't have the space or the resources to care for my dad 24/7.
Many women will be made to feel guilty for not doing it though
The new health secretary said its ' family first ' with elderly relatives, those without a family around them will be on the back foot straight away!

Namenic · 25/10/2021 08:39

I would want to raise my kids to be the sort of people who would help with care of older relatives. Obviously sometimes you need additional professionals for specific care (like pressure sores, some 2-person hoisting) and people who fall frequently or have dementia and wander outside. But sorting bills, doing shopping, meals, cleaning can be assisted. If I went into a home, I’d hope kids/grandkids would visit.

I am from a culture where looking after older people in the family is more normal. My parents and in laws have helped me raise our kids and I would like to help them in whatever way we can as they get older. But I know some people have toxic families - so it’s not always so simple.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 25/10/2021 08:41

So this assisted death thing that some posters are so casual about…

Rich people will pay for care, poor people will end up with assisted dying.

How do we make sure that’s not how it ends up?

the80sweregreat · 25/10/2021 08:49

Nobody is bring casual about death, but keeping people alive who don't want to be or would rather be dead is also cruel

It's not giving people a say in how they want to die.
It's just my opinion though.

BackBackBack · 25/10/2021 08:49

I very very much don't want my daughter having to care for me, but I think as we get older our perceptions of things can change. My dad was a lovely, unselfish man but when he got old and sick he desperately didn't want to go into a home despite being totally dependent on a carer and having serious mobility issues.

So it's all well and good saying now that I don't want my daughter doing this, but what if my perceptions shift when I get old and sick and I don't realise I'm being a burden?

Absolutely 100% agree - and this is the point I have been trying to make (probably quite badly!).

Making living wills when fit and well is very sensible. But people are overlooking the fact that it's not a 'one and done' situation. If your views change then you can disregard it - and if you have capacity then you (quite rightly) will be listened to.

Removing capacity is - necessarily - a high bar to meet, and I think many people who do not have direct experience of this don't understand just how bad a person needs to be before you can activate a POA (or apply to the Court of Protection). And the journey to that point can be very long and drawn-out - My DM has needed care now for almost a decade. So in the meantime, you have a person that has extensive caring needs and probably very little idea of how much of a burden that is.

Before my DM's dementia set in, she genuinely did not understand how draining it was to constantly be 'on call'. She was long-retired and had forgotten the demands of being a carer, and honestly thought that she just needed a little bit of extra help. She didn't have the distance or perspective to be able to see that all of the 'little' tasks added up - and that toileting, showering or getting someone in/out of bed with very limited mobility is not a 'little task'!

DottyHarmer · 25/10/2021 08:53

I think actually it would be the wealthier, more legally knowledgable people who would opt for assisted dying.

Sick of holier than thou posters proclaiming that they would look after their parents rather than booting them off to the next life. ”Sometimes you need additional professionals for additional care”. Ha bloody ha. Have you any idea what a round-the-clock team of professionals would cost?! If someone requires hoisting onto the toilet, you need the “professionals” right there and then, not the following morning at 10am. And, these professionals need letting in, so someone needs to be in the house all day.

Also, not every old person is Captain Tom, or even my granny who lived to well over 100 fully compos mentis and continent till the end. How about the sexually aggressive father of my friend (this distressingly came totally out of the blue) or the faeces smearers or mil who was termed a “screamer” 24/7 ?

And those lovely people in lovely cultures who care for their elderly? I can tell you it’s largely to save a buck and the old person is confined to their bed and kept going for their pension and certainly no “professional” care is given.

BackBackBack · 25/10/2021 08:54

I am from a culture where looking after older people in the family is more normal. My parents and in laws have helped me raise our kids and I would like to help them in whatever way we can as they get older. But I know some people have toxic families - so it’s not always so simple.

It's not just toxic relationships, although that is an important factor - it's the care needs of the person. Families may want to care for their elderly relative, but sometimes the care needs of that person mean that it's not possible.

So this assisted death thing that some posters are so casual about...
Rich people will pay for care, poor people will end up with assisted dying. How do we make sure that’s not how it ends up?

This is my concern, especially with the current Government's attitude towards the elderly - the 'protective ring' around care homes during the pandemic was a load of rubbish. Many people died before their time and not just the elderly - the Stephen Graham/Jodie Comer drama about this was very upsetting to watch.

BackBackBack · 25/10/2021 09:04

@DottyHarmer

I think actually it would be the wealthier, more legally knowledgable people who would opt for assisted dying.

Sick of holier than thou posters proclaiming that they would look after their parents rather than booting them off to the next life. ”Sometimes you need additional professionals for additional care”. Ha bloody ha. Have you any idea what a round-the-clock team of professionals would cost?! If someone requires hoisting onto the toilet, you need the “professionals” right there and then, not the following morning at 10am. And, these professionals need letting in, so someone needs to be in the house all day.

Also, not every old person is Captain Tom, or even my granny who lived to well over 100 fully compos mentis and continent till the end. How about the sexually aggressive father of my friend (this distressingly came totally out of the blue) or the faeces smearers or mil who was termed a “screamer” 24/7 ?

And those lovely people in lovely cultures who care for their elderly? I can tell you it’s largely to save a buck and the old person is confined to their bed and kept going for their pension and certainly no “professional” care is given.

Yes, the point about 'professional care' is very true!! My DM's care is funded but the agency also provides private care - and I know some other families that are paying for care and using them. They get the same treatment and results that we do - meaning that if the care agency is short-staffed then they will be late (sometimes by hours), or they may ring up and advise that they cannot come at all (has happened to DM four times in the last month). This isn't a criticism of the carers - who are doing the best they can with limited resources and are dedicated and lovely people.

As Dotty says, you also have to be there to let them in and out - and to be the back-up when they are late or do not show. If a carer is supposed to call at 8am to get your relative out of bed, and they are delayed by three hours then you either have to accept that your relative will stay in bed until nearly lunchtime, or step in yourself. Likewise on the days when they don't come at all, you have to have a plan. And that's just the times when the carers are there - if your relative needs the loo, or wants to go outside, or is bored and wants to go somewhere...

Having a round the clock care team (main person, relief person) is hugely and quite frankly the majority will not be able to afford this for very long - which is exactly the issue. The years of frailty and poor health can go on for a long time. It is very easy to feel loving and dedicated and caring towards a fluffy old lady who only needs some help with cooking and cleaning. It's harder to keep going when you are in your 11th year of providing round the clock care to someone who literally cannot even feed themselves without help, especially if that person's condition makes them difficult to deal with - a lot of dementia can manifest in unpleasant personality changes.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 25/10/2021 09:05

Re what they do with their elderly ‘in other cultures…’

A BiL of mine married a non Brit from a Mediterranean culture. He used to go on about how wonderful it was, the way they looked after their own elderly, cleaning up their shit (his words) etc.

Roll on a decade or two, and FiL had dementia. And what happened once he became difficult? After one or two very short respite stays to give me a break (he was mostly with us) the response from SiL was, ‘Not one more DAY!!’

We have Indian friends, living in Mumbai, who used to visit London every summer. My DM was in a care home with dementia at the time and I was once telling the wife how fond some Brits are of saying how uniquely awful we are, compared to ‘other cultures’ for not caring for our elderly ourselves.

She said it was rubbish. Her own elderly mother, with dementia, was cared for in her own home, 100 miles from Mumbai, by 2 permanent live-in carers. As she pointed out, such things are relatively far cheaper and easier to organise there, than in the U.K. She said it was a common arrangement.

Lastly, a dd who was working in Cambodia, witnessed in a poor rural village, a grandmother with dementia, who was tied to a chair outside all day, a) to stop her wandering off and getting lost, and b) to stop her weeing and pooing in the house.
Once a day she was hosed down.
Plenty of poorer people in poorer countries, simply have no choice.

Netflix345 · 25/10/2021 09:07

People saying they will ‘book a one way ticket to Switzerland’ you do realise you can’t just book a ticket there and do it, plus it costs thousands of pounds

RachaelN · 25/10/2021 09:09

I personally will be looking after my parents when the need arises. They have done so much for me. I worked in care for 10 years, in terrible and fantastic homes. I see it as my responsibility when the time comes.

zafferana · 25/10/2021 09:11

It's a good point OP - we were short of care assistants even before Brexit, but Brexit was a spectacular own goal in terms of finding staff for these low-paid, low-status, long hours, dirty jobs.

I really hope assisted dying is available by the time we are old. We're so humane with our pets - they're in pain, their quality of life is gone - do the decent thing - yet with our fellow humans there is nothing available unless people can stump up thousands for Dignitas and have the ability to get to Switzerland.

It's not enough, IMO, to say that it will only be available for those with less than six months to live suffering from a terminal illness. I think most of us would rather be dead than live for years, going slowly more demented, or with chronic pain, with double incontinence, unable to wash ourselves, have any enjoyment from life, bedridden or incapacitated, our lives lacking in dignity, privacy or any degree of enjoyment and for what? So some poorly paid person can wipe our arses and sing 'Roll out the barrel' to us. Mortifying.

HoldingTheDoor · 25/10/2021 09:13

I personally will be looking after my parents when the need arises. They have done so much for me. I worked in care for 10 years, in terrible and fantastic homes. I see it as my responsibility when the time comes.

What if her needs are such that you can't keep her safe, can't provide her with the care she needs and your mental health is suffering?

TravelLost · 25/10/2021 09:17

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

So this assisted death thing that some posters are so casual about…

Rich people will pay for care, poor people will end up with assisted dying.

How do we make sure that’s not how it ends up?

Yep. I’d be very worried about that.

Esp with all the talk about ‘not wanting to be burden fur my children’ or not wanting the indignity coming with it. This will put a huge pressure on people to do the right thing and chose suicide vs needing care if that’s the sort o message people hear for another 10/20/30 years (by which time the posters on this thread will need sais care)

I also agree with @BackBackBack.
As people get older and need more care, they won’t always realise how much ‘of a burden’ they are. Thé will to live is strong for everyone Imo. And they might well consider that their life is worth living despite what their family thinks (hard work, hard to do, indignity of the situation etc etc)

antsinyourpanta · 25/10/2021 09:22

I would want to raise my kids to be the sort of people who would help with care of older relatives. Obviously sometimes you need additional professionals for specific care (like pressure sores, some 2-person hoisting) and people who fall frequently or have dementia and wander outside. But sorting bills, doing shopping, meals, cleaning can be assisted. If I went into a home, I’d hope kids/grandkids would visit.

I imagine there are very few people in care homes because their relatives are not decent enough people to help with shopping, cleaning and meals!!
Unless you have a difficult relationship or live too far away I would imagine most people would offer that sort of support to elderly relatives, but the "care" most people on this thread are talking about isnt something that fits in comfortably with full time work or family life. Its 24/7 care which very few people would be able to adequately and safely provide from their own home.