To wonder who will look after us in old age?

[malificent7]

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money.
They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

FFS!!! my vote is completely for a CHOICE in dying! Or signing a DO NOT RESUSITATE!. I would hate to be a burden on my family. I am a spiritual person and the belief is very much, when it is your time, it's your time. Too many people (whatever age, especially the elderly) are kept 'alive' and go on and live a very limited life and a life that turns into utter misery for them and those that care for them. What is the point? I have the utmost respect for CARERS and think they should be paid way more. They do a job that I would struggle to do and I have done most jobs in my life-time. People are living way too long due to medical assistance. I hope I can have a choice when it is my time. I am 59. My Mum is 79 and is in reasonable health atm. I am lucky. However, I have seen my friends who have been ripped apart by their parents needing care, hospitalisation, extra funding, extra care, stress, worry, homes. Their last memories being flawed by their parents being abusive, upset, incontinent, dirty, angry, hateful, demented. It is so sad. My fear is to NOT let my children see me like that and have to do my personal care. No way on earth! Please let me have a choice..

However, when those health problems reach a point where they are in constant discomfort, can not do anything for themselves, cannot control their bowels and bladder and are purely 'existing' there should be an option for assisted dying. - emphasis on the word 'option'. I don't believe it'll ever be something decided for them unless if they did not have capacity..

I have full POA for DM but until it was a nightmare we had confirmation of her capacity having ceased (via a geriatric consultant). Endless battles with the care team - she's not showered in a week, but we can't make her if she says she doesn't want to. Infections and pressure sores but what can we do because she objects if we try and clean her bottom properly. Sitting all night in the armchair because she'd refuse to be put to bed. It was a horrible situation and the carer's hands were tied because whilst she was deemed to have capacity, she had the right to refuse care.

And whilst she has no capacity now, it's still tricky. If she objects to care I have to keep reminding the care team that she doesn't have the capacity to make decisions for the best interests of her own health, so they need to wipe her properly, shower her etc.

But I really don't think I could make the decision to sign-off on her being assisted with dying. Whilst she can't go anywhere as she is ECV, cannot read or write anymore, doesn't understand much of what she watches on TV now, has no control over her bladder or bowels and cannot look after herself, she is generally quite happy. She's usually in a good mood, she likes watching the world outside the window, she enjoys having bunches of flowers in the room, she likes looking at old photos even if she can't remember the people in them, enjoys her cups of coffee and sticky buns...

How do you decide what someone's quality of life 'should' be? The thought of how that would work really frightens me, but I can see the social care system going in that direction as the number of elderly people needing care is going to rocket and there is not going to be enough money to fund it.

@BackBackBack

I agree capacity has always been a complex issue in healthcare, there's a lot of human error and subjectivity to it. Capacity assessments should definitely exist but maybe more needs to be done to actually understand what that means in practice/care. I'm a HCP I may be wrong but I don't actually remember being taught about capacity in my training, it wasn't till I got onto the wards and heard it in passing then I was meant to understand it and abide by it despite having limited training on what capacity actually means. So I imagine that is the the position a lot of carers are put in.

@MadeItOut21

As someone who saw a very frail and ill family member struggle and need full time care for over 10 years....I am VERY MUCH AGAINST assisted dieing. She only wanted to die when she was at her lowest and other times she would be happy to see her grandchildren, express how much she wanted to see them marry etc. There were definitely family members who saw her as a huge burden and made that clear. The pressure to kill herself would have been huge if assisted dieing was available (there was an inheritance at stake as well which was obviously getting smaller as more money was spent on care - not huge by any means but we were a poor family so it was a lot to us).

While I really feel for the minority of people who have full mental capacity while having severe physical illnesses that cause them pain and misery, I think that on the whole the system would be hugely open to abuse. I feel very strongly that this should not be made legal.

I couldn't agree more. And I speak as someone who's done a lot of elderly parent care of both parents through illness (terminal in my dad's case). On one single occasion my dad expressed a wish for it all to be over, but most of the time he very much wanted to live despite everything he was going through. But it's very easy for me to see how selfish relatives (or even misguided relatives who thought they were doing the best thing) could end up steering the elderly/frail into a path they don't genuinely want to take. Or a patient or elderly person opting for that course themselves at a low point when most of the time they would say they're not done yet.

Assisted dying is an extremely slippery slope imo and I worry a lot about the potential for assisted dying measures to be misused or abused.

@BackBackBack probably a very simplistic way of viewing it, if you had any doubt in your mind that it wasnt the best thing to do, then at that time it probably isnt the best thing to do.

My 70-year-old sister cared for my 90-year-old mother (suffering from Dementia) in her home (sister's home) until she could no longer manage and had to have her admitted to a home.
I was in another country, and also NC, but even if I were in contact, I am not a person who could provide that level of care. I'm just not.
I worry about what would happen if my strapping, big and strong husband developed it and there was no outside help available.

The fact is it’s badly paid, there’s no initiative. It’s disgusting that some carers get paid minimum wage. I work in higher education and a lot of students are being encouraged to go to university and getting higher paid jobs and that’ll mean because of the pay people won’t take caring jobs.
It’s unfortunate.

Once you remove age from it you see why assisted dying is so terrible.
All these people on this thread asking for assisted dying if they got dementia and couldn't care for themselves - would you argue that a child with severe learning disabilities should have assisted dying?

I worry about this. I know my kids won’t bother. I have to book an appointment to see then now! Soylent green springs to mind!

People should be advised to do ' living wills ' : let your decision to die be yours before you lose capacity.
If this was brought in, maybe the idea of relatives wanting others dead before their time might be addressed ( a bit , at least )
I know that is a simplistic view though

I really like this idea, living together in your dotage in a kind of ‘commune’, not sure where the care comes from if you need it…maybe a mixture of helping each other and outside care. Maybe not suitable for dementia patients but a lovely idea in principle. www.activageproject.eu/blog/2020/02/11/Aging-Project-Living-together-with-your-friends/

I worry about what would happen if my strapping, big and strong husband developed it and there was no outside help available.

The likelihood is that you would have to get on with it. Or you'd have to refuse to provide care - and I mean really refuse. That means not helping if he fell, not providing him with food or drink, not washing him, not laundering his clothes, not doing anything for him at all. Basically acting as if he did not live there at all. And during that time, wait for social services to respond.

In practice, could you refuse? Do you think you could stand by and do nothing not knowing when social services would step in? And social care is so stretched that it becomes a case of 'who will blink first' - so if a social worker were to advise you that there was no help available for 3 months, could you stand by and watch your spouse starve and sit in their own filth? And I'm not asking that judgmentally but factually, because that's what you would have to do.

There aren't many people who could - and that's how you end up being a carer - because the 'safety net' now has so many holes in it that if you don't have the money to pay for care then you have no choice but to get on with it. I know of a woman who ended up as a carer for her widowed FIL and in the end, she literally had to drive him to the social work office and leave him there before they found a home for him. She'd begged and begged for help and been told that there was no space. Her DH had died so she was on her own with two kids under 10, plus working as well.

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/16/co-housing-people-things-common-live-together-older-people

[quote Hopeisallineed]I really like this idea, living together in your dotage in a kind of ‘commune’, not sure where the care comes from if you need it…maybe a mixture of helping each other and outside care. Maybe not suitable for dementia patients but a lovely idea in principle. www.activageproject.eu/blog/2020/02/11/Aging-Project-Living-together-with-your-friends/[/quote]
It's a lovely idea. My DM would have hated it Ironically dementia has made her more social, easier going and less judgemental. Back in her compos mentis days, she was not a fan of other people - anti-social would be putting it diplomatically! There's no way on God's green earth she would have ever agreed to go to somewhere like that. However the way that social care for the elderly is going, we are going to need to think of alternatives. Simply put, there is not going to be enough money - or enough resource - to provide the level of care required to keep people in their individual homes.

I had an accident and needed to use a comped, couldn’t wash myself, couldn’t cook or dress properly. The week in Hospital was horrendous. I cried constantly and would not have wanted to stay alive if this was my future. However, my mum took me home and cared for me. She washed me, dressed me, fed me, loved me and held me in her arms while I cried from sheer frustration. This was only a couple of years ago and I was in adulthood. I would not under any circumstances: dementia, incontinence, anything let someone else care for my mother. MIL - wells she can rely on hubby - so I think she would prefer a care home!

so think about thìs regularlysadly
some of the replies drive me to despair even though I'm making preparations .

I would not under any circumstances: dementia, incontinence, anything let someone else care for my mother.

Bur for people - like me - who live hundreds of miles from their parents, what would you have me do? I cannot be there every day - it's just not possible, as I have to earn a living! They were the ones that moved away BTW.

And also what you need to bear in mind is that each situation is different. I am very lucky that my Mum's dementia has actually made her nicer (I know that sounds bad!). But I know of other carers who have parents who have become violent.

The reality of dementia is that you cannot leave them alone - which means that if you and only you were providing care, then they would need to live with you. If they were violent - and not just towards you but to your children, or your spouse, or visitors to your home - then what would you do? What happens if they become so immobile that they need lifting - and they are too big or heavy to safely lift? Bear in mind you are lifting multiple times a day, every single day - every time they want to move, every visit to the toilet, every time they want to leave the room or go outside, in and out of bed, in and out of the shower...

Until you are in the situation you cannot say what you will do - you really can't. You may want to provide care but find that you cannot.

@BackBackBack my mother too and they probably would have hated her but I think I quite like the idea and have always loved living with people, could be the answer for some. I might find some friends now and make them promise to live with me…😂

[quote Hopeisallineed]@BackBackBack my mother too and they probably would have hated her but I think I quite like the idea and have always loved living with people, could be the answer for some. I might find some friends now and make them promise to live with me…😂[/quote]
I do like the sound of a more communal approach. It could work really well if you blended people with differing levels of ability. My DM lost a lot of mobility before her dementia set in, so although she wasn't able to move very well she did still do a lot of babysitting for my brother. Nephew was young enough to need childcare but old enough that he just needed a bit of adult presence rather than constant monitoring! It worked really well - he kept her company and she made sure he was OK.

I would not under any circumstances: dementia, incontinence, anything let someone else care for my mother.

That's a lovely idea in theory.

@CuriousBogInTheNight

Once you remove age from it you see why assisted dying is so terrible. All these people on this thread asking for assisted dying if they got dementia and couldn't care for themselves - would you argue that a child with severe learning disabilities should have assisted dying?

It really isn't terrible. My Dad was 70 when he died and he'd been bed ridden for years, totally unable to do anything for himself. If he needed the loo he had to wait for my Mum, if his nose itched he had to wait for one of us to go in to him. I remember hearing him screaming with pain and saying an animal wouldn't be allowed too suffer like him and he was right.

This is such an interesting topic and good to see a variety of opinions. I think the fact is one size does not fit all and it is a deeply personal choice and yes many people’s views may change as they become more inform. But it is such an important conversation to have. For me right now I would not want to be in a position where I relied on care for personal necessities (to be able to use the bathroom, turn over in bed, feed myself etc.) equally if I could not remember my people or was scared because I was out of my time I would want to choose assisted dying. If I had to I think I would choose to do this before I was incapable - however that is also problematic. People have their own lines they don’t want to cross and a way of assessing these and recording them would relieve the pressure put on families for making those decisions

The likelihood is that you would have to get on with it. Or you'd have to refuse to provide care - and I mean really refuse. That means not helping if he fell, not providing him with food or drink, not washing him, not laundering his clothes, not doing anything for him at all. Basically acting as if he did not live there at all. And during that time, wait for social services to respond.

When DM was in hospital he GP told me to make it clear that I would not be caring for her as it would be the only way she would get the help she needed. I told the bitch of a doctor I couldn't care for her and she looked at me as thought it was something she'd trodden in and said 'I that case I'll have to involve social services'.

How the stupid woman thought I was going to be caring for someone who was on oxygen and unable to speak or walk I don't know. She made me feel awful but I knew I was doing the right thing for Mum.