To wonder who will look after us in old age?

[malificent7]

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money.
They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

@Youcancallmeval

If I get to a point I need care, I will be booking a one way ticket to Switzerland.

God me too. It’s ridiculous how we fight to keep old people alive.

[quote Unsure33]@Violinist64

But governments don’t want to raised national insurance and tax do they ??

And a lot of people don’t want to pay more ?[/quote]
Governments of every hue have taken money that WE have paid into all our working lives that was for our pensions and other needs in old age and squandered it in order to look impressive to voters in short term vanity projects.

I'm a carer. I love my job but I'm hoping assisted dying is legal by the time I may need it. No way I'd want to live like some of my clients do. I actually make more money with my little cleaning jobs than I do with my care work which is the main issue with staff retention. We should be paid a decent wage, after all, we're doing an incredibly important (and undervalued!) job.

These comments are really sad.
A lot of it boils down to cultural and religious upbringing.
As my family aren't from the UK and more family orientated of course I'd like to be there for my mother. Many would regard this as their duty.
If they needed round the clock or specialist care that's one thing, but is it really that much to ask for to do a bit of cleaning/washing and make a bit of extra food? People will he quick to jump at the chance to receive their inheritance£££ but cba to look after their dearest at their most difficult times. How sad.

What upsets me is how they're treated . Eg, an eye roll, a comment along the lines of " well she won't use the toilet, so what are we supposed to do?"
Or " she just wants to sit there , all day " when she clearly doesn't.
And don't get me started on rap music in the dayroom ! ( it's because a member of staff wants it on!)

What you're describing is lack of person centred care. The standard of care, in theory, has massively improved from even 20 years ago when I first started. The problem is lack of staff and equipment to provide that person centred care, and when it comes out, staff are told to manage their time better, or sacked.

I had two people wanting the toilet at the same time, who need two to assist, someone else undressing themselves and another who couldn't stand unaided wanting to go to work today. All at the same time. We have 2 members of staff. According to person centred care I'm apparently supposed to time manage my way out of that, so I ask you - who waits? Who?
No one seems to be able to answer my question, ever, because no one is supposed to wait because that's not person centred care. No one wants their mum to wait, but that means someone else's mum has to.
I'm trained to give person centred care, I want to, but if I give person centred care to one person, someone else gets no care, because there's no one to give it.
You can slate people, demand the moon on a stick, complain and go to Panorama to 'reveal' all this, but ultimately unless we have the resources to provide good care, it can't be delivered.

@Ledition

Depends how "bad" I am but I would want my DDs to look after me! I will look after my own mum if she requires it in the future. It's not selfish IMO it's what good families are supposed to do. However, full-time around the clock care with zero respite is different but if I just need a bit of help with showering/cooking well they can bloody well step up

A bit of cooking and shopping is one thing, but expecting your kids to shower you and wipe your arse is too much. You should have a career or go into a home if you can't look after your basic bodily functions. I haven't had children for them to do those kind of things for me.

I don't want to do personal care- you are right

Who owns all these care homes anyway?

I look after my 86 year old MIL who was diagnosed with dementia before Christmas last year. She is just very forgetful but happy in her own home which is next door to us. I cook, clean, shopping, shower, appointments and generally look after her and her home. My husband will look after the bills, maintenence, garden, etc.
One thing for sure is when I am older I would never want my own children to look after me. They have their own life's.
My FIL died over 20 years ago so when we moved my MIL came with us. It works very well and even when I am very happy to look after her I wouldn't expect or want my children to look after me.

Having left MN after a decade of posting, but re-lurking after a 12 month break, I never thought a thread about care would be the subject to make me crumble and re-reg!

This is a thought provoker for all of those saying that you should look after your aged parents as it's your duty -

My Mum has mixed moderate dementia. This means that she can be quite lucid when talking to you - understand what you mean when you say it's a nice day and so on. But she has lost most of her language, has forgottten she's had children, doesn't understand why she can't go and see her Mum (Nan has been dead for almost 20 years) and so on.

She has a host of other very serious health conditions many of which she has had for a number of years and are now starting to come to their end-stages where they have a very serious effect on her life and day-to-day abilities. She also has very limited mobility meaning that she cannot cook for herself, cannot wash or toilet herself unassisted, cannot dress without help and so on. She can be left for an hour or two but no more than that, so looking after her is a FT job.

When she originally started to deteriorate, I was a great proponent of finding a care home for her. My DF looks after her and was starting to struggle. However when she did have to go into a care home temporarily for respite purposes she was utterly miserable. She didn't understand where she was, became very distressed, and was constantly pleading to know what she had done wrong and what she could do to make it better so that she would be allowed home again. This was also during the first lockdown, so I wasn't allowed to see her in the same room. The closest we could get was trying to shout to each other through the gap in a top-opening window. Watching her try and lift her hand (severe arthritis) to "touch" mine through the pane of glass, made me cry all the way home. It knocked me for six the guilt I felt about her being in there, even though I knew she was being looked after by professionals.

She came home and was absolutely thrilled and it really made me question myself about what to do for the best. I am several hours drive away - it's not easy for me to go back and forwards regularly. But I go every other week to try and spend a few days with her - luckily I can work remotely.

It really surprised me that I wanted to care for her - I know it sounds awful when I write it like that, but I honestly thought I'd want her to have professional care, I'd visit, and that would be that. But the "pull" of wanting to care for her was really strong. Even now when she has assistance from a care team, she responds differently when I shower her, or toilet her, or help her dress - she's much happier, and more co-operative. Even the care team comment on the fact that she's much easier to work with when I'm there.

That said, it is hard. Really really hard. Not just physically but emotionally. Every single day that I am there - and I am conscious that I am not there 24/7. The emotional toll of caring with someone with dementia is very very high. Foods that she previously liked, she doesn't any more. She loses weight easily and doesn't eat much now so every day is a battle to try and get calories into her. Her mobility is limited but she wanders, so it's a constant worry that she will try and get up and fall over. Her memory is very unreliable - I had to explain that a great friend of hers, who passed away a long time ago, was no longer with us and she was very upset because she couldn't remember that she'd died (DM went to the funeral). She can't cook or get herself drinks as she struggles to stand, so every thing that she needs has to be fetched for her. The house is not set-up for someone with older-age mobility and memory issues. It's hard. She didn't know who I was last time I went - that was really upsetting, trying not to cry because it distresses her and trying to keep calm and keep a smile on my face whilst she asked me who I was and how I knew her.

If I lived nearer then I would want to be there every day. I was honestly surprised by how much I wanted to do it - even though DM and I had previously had a difficult relationship. I spend as much time as I can with her. But I would never ever judge someone for finding FT care for their parent because the worry and strain and stress is relentless. As it is, if DM gets much worse then I don't know how much longer we will be able to keep her at home because we don't have the equipment to lift her - the care team won't (and understandably because of their own H&S) and I have already strained my back several times trying to get her in and out of bed.

It's so hard to know what to do for the best. I take my hat off to anyone who is caring for someone who is elderly, but totally understand those who cannot and need to find care homes.

@SugarMouseTown

Only in our culture do we feel old people are burdens instead of realising what they can offer and how enriching inter generations living can be.

I'm a big fan of inter-generational living and was raised in such a home but hate this romanticisation of other cultures as though they're some kind of utopia. Elderly people are still abandoned(sometimes literally) and neglected. I've seen documentaries and read reports on it. It's a nice idea in theory but the reality means that it's almost inevitably the women who have to do most of the work. That the person may be receiving inadequate care, because and that the mental health of the carers may be suffering.

It's one thing helping your parents with a little cooking and the odd shower, though that can also take its toll. Caring for a parent with dementia is on another level.

You're correct about the romanticised view. It was very common in Spain to care for elderly parents and still is. The burden fell to my mother-in-laws sister, as she didn't have a partner, well neither did some of the brothers, but it was only the women who were taken into consideration to do the caring. Their father died younger than their mother, so she basically spent her late twenties onwards caring for them. She has never married, had children, had a job, travelled etc. She literally gave up her whole life looking after them and by the time they passed away, it was too late for her to really do anything with hers.

A lot of it boils down to cultural and religious upbringing.
As my family aren't from the UK and more family orientated of course I'd like to be there for my mother. Many would regard this as their duty.

I don't know which country your family are from but a quick Google of abandoned elder and the name of many countries will reveal a plethora of articles about children abandoning their elderly parents. It isn't just a U.K problem issue and people downplaying what's involved in becoming a carer are part of the problem.

@MummyJasmin

These comments are really sad. A lot of it boils down to cultural and religious upbringing. As my family aren't from the UK and more family orientated of course I'd like to be there for my mother. Many would regard this as their duty. If they needed round the clock or specialist care that's one thing, but is it really that much to ask for to do a bit of cleaning/washing and make a bit of extra food? People will he quick to jump at the chance to receive their inheritance£££ but cba to look after their dearest at their most difficult times. How sad.

That is truly not what people are talking about here. Cleaning and washing and extra food is absolutely manageable. Dementia, medical conditions, more severe frailty are not. It's setting the kitchen on fire again, it's wandering at 2am and punching your daughter in the face when she tries to stop you, it's (to use my personal example) when they fall on the toilet, and they're mortified and sobbing that they want to die, while you're trying to clean poo smeared walls and wash them at 7.15am when you've got kids to get up and off to school at 7.45 and a full time job that starts at 9am.

Good care eats up an inheritance fast. Far more common in my experience that people keep granny at home to save on care, then neglect her because they cannot or will not meet her needs

Abandoned elderly sorry.

My mother had a long term illness & lived in wonderfully caring care home for the last 3 years of her life. She still had full mental capacity. She decided that she had had enough so starved herself to death. Not a pleasant thing to witness.

@wingedhsrpy That is brilliant pit of thè box thinking !

out!

I think the first usable robot will be to care for the elderly. I think automation will happen to the care sector and assisted dying.

@Maverickess

What upsets me is how they're treated . Eg, an eye roll, a comment along the lines of " well she won't use the toilet, so what are we supposed to do?" Or " she just wants to sit there , all day " when she clearly doesn't. And don't get me started on rap music in the dayroom ! ( it's because a member of staff wants it on!)

What you're describing is lack of person centred care. The standard of care, in theory, has massively improved from even 20 years ago when I first started. The problem is lack of staff and equipment to provide that person centred care, and when it comes out, staff are told to manage their time better, or sacked.

I had two people wanting the toilet at the same time, who need two to assist, someone else undressing themselves and another who couldn't stand unaided wanting to go to work today. All at the same time. We have 2 members of staff. According to person centred care I'm apparently supposed to time manage my way out of that, so I ask you - who waits? Who?
No one seems to be able to answer my question, ever, because no one is supposed to wait because that's not person centred care. No one wants their mum to wait, but that means someone else's mum has to.
I'm trained to give person centred care, I want to, but if I give person centred care to one person, someone else gets no care, because there's no one to give it.
You can slate people, demand the moon on a stick, complain and go to Panorama to 'reveal' all this, but ultimately unless we have the resources to provide good care, it can't be delivered.

Which is why we need more highly trained staff and a lot more HCPs .

Why are we choosing who has to wait half an hour to go to the toilet?

Far more funding needs to be directed at elderly care.

It will be all of us , on here, before long.

Not everyone who needs care wants to die! I'm amazed how maby people are talking about assisted dying. Yes I think should be an option for those who are terminally ill, living in pain or have no quality of life. However, there are plenty of people who receive care in their own homes or live in care homes who are happy to stay alive! My great aunt spent the last 5 years of her life in a lovely care home. She was very happy and everybtime I spoke to her she'd say something like "oh I must dash - we're about to start the prosecco evening". I find this attitude of just killing people off the second the can't care for themselves, absolutely horrible and quite disturbing.

@SallyWD

Not everyone who needs care wants to die! I'm amazed how maby people are talking about assisted dying. Yes I think should be an option for those who are terminally ill, living in pain or have no quality of life. However, there are plenty of people who receive care in their own homes or live in care homes who are happy to stay alive! My great aunt spent the last 5 years of her life in a lovely care home. She was very happy and everybtime I spoke to her she'd say something like "oh I must dash - we're about to start the prosecco evening". I find this attitude of just killing people off the second the can't care for themselves, absolutely horrible and quite disturbing.

The point about people needing care not necessarily wanting to die is very true. Although I'm not sure that I've seen anyone here suggesting that people should be killed off for being infirm!

However people's attitudes change. It's all very well and good saying that you don't want to be a burden to your children and would take yourself off to Dignitas and so on. But until you are actually in that situation you have no idea how you are going to feel, or what you are going to want to do.

My Mum spent years working as a home carer herself, so knew only too well what was involved. She was absolutely adamant that she did not want family to 'sacrifice their lives' (her words at the time, not mine) to care for her. Over 20 years later the situation has changed. She has no memory of her former wishes, and although she doesn't recognise me all of the time, there's clearly still an instinctive family link that makes her trust me more than the carers - as nice as they are. She wants the care from me. She finds it easier, less distressing and is noticeably calmer and happier when I am caring for her - particularly the personal care that's needed.

Saying what you would or would not do is all very well in theory, but looks very different when you are at the sharp end of the situation.

I find this attitude of just killing people off the second the can't care for themselves, absolutely horrible and quite disturbing.

Assisted dying isn't 'killing people off', it involves the person actively killing themselves because that's what they've chosen.

I'm autistic, adhd, I have CPTSD from severe childhood abuse, the thought of being under the care of others horrifies me. I can't even remove my clothing to undergo breast screening, smears etc., so I don't go. I want to live on my own terms. I don't want anyone near me when I get older. The alternatives just aren't suitable for me, I would be existing in hell.

I would never want my children to look after me. I looked after both my parents (6 months /4years). It nearly killed me. My sister visited for two hours once a fortnight, my two brothers less. They thought as I was self employed it was doable. They even had my father's funeral postponed to go on holiday (he was dead, he would have wanted that, yeah right). I turned down work as my father needed me and we rented a bungalow as he refused a home. Our equity from our house sale was used to pay for specialised accommodation. No one gave us anything. When he died my siblings came a calling. It had cost us £200k. They had no mortgages, we had sacrificed everything. They gave my father a small cake or a beer once a month, no thanks for me. I think i have a form of PTSD after the fighting and abuse. Assited dying I can't support but never, ever, ask your children for care. I chose vodka and a fast car. Cheers!!

I'm autistic, adhd, I have CPTSD from severe childhood abuse, the thought of being under the care of others horrifies me. I can't even remove my clothing to undergo breast screening, smears etc., so I don't go. I want to live on my own terms. I don't want anyone near me when I get older. The alternatives just aren't suitable for me, I would be existing in hell.

That's very sad, I am so sorry to hear that. You are right to think about your wishes now though, because the reality of care if you become infirm is that it you do lose some dignity - even if it is a family member caring for you.

Ironically the progression of my Mum's dementia has actually made the personal care a little easier. Initially, when she still had capacity (but it was starting to go) she would get terribly upset about having to have personal care especially for showering and toileting. The truth is that even trying to be as sensitive as possible, you are wiping someone else's bottom and lifting their breasts to wash underneath. It is incredibly intimate having a total stranger do that feels so invasive and undignified no matter how nice they are - and it's not unusual for care teams to change staff regularly so it's quite common not to know the person who is doing your care.

I also agree with assisted dying. I think a few comments here are over sensationalizing it. I believe any laws relating to this will be subject to so much criteria, perhaps best interest panels and significant evidence that this individual believes (or if they dont have capacity) that those closest believe they have little to no quality of life and that can be backed up medically. I don't think anything would be "flippant" about the process.

I think regarding care in general, I dont think anyone would be comfortable with the idea that assisted death is offered as soon as someone is needing care. I've worked in health and social care and the elderly are able to enjoy quality of life despite substantial health problems and disability. However, when those health problems reach a point where they are in constant discomfort, can not do anything for themselves, cannot control their bowels and bladder and are purely 'existing' there should be an option for assisted dying. - emphasis on the word 'option'. I don't believe it'll ever be something decided for them unless if they did not have capacity..

Also, its looking as if there isnt going to be enough people to care for us in the future, so unfortunately the alternative to not offering assisted dying to those with limited quality of life would be potentially for those people to suffer more so with inadequate care.