Star Hobson- murdered toddler; prevalence of videos of “funny” parenting of “difficult” children

[CallMeRisley]

This isn’t a thread specifically about Star Hobson, I know there is another thread about her. I didn’t know how to succinctly word my title so I’ll explain. After seeing that thread, I googled the case and read through some details. In this page of live updates from the trial:
www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/19659483.live-trial-alleged-murder-toddler-star-hobson-begins/
There are details explained of videos taken of Star before her death, from the mother and her partner’s phones.
These include for example:

-A video of Star distressed/upset (having a tantrum?) lying on the ground outside, an adult says “come on, get up”, she is then picked up by an adult by her reins “like a puppet”, then put back down.

-A video of Star falling asleep, eyes drooping and head falling lower and lower until she ends up with her face in a bowl of food with caption “That’s what happens when a baby doesn’t sleep”.

-A video of Star leaning forwards in a kids’ plastic chair too far forwards so that she falls out and the caption “It was in that moment she realised she’d messed up”.

The judge/lawyer referred to these videos as “disturbing, bizarre pieces of footage”. The judge or lawyer said of the tantrum/lifted up by reins video “why would a mother film their child in this state?” and of the falling asleep in food video “there is no love being demonstrated for that child”.

I don’t know about anyone else but I see videos like this of toddlers and young children all the time on Instagram and tiktok.
I have seen many “funny” videos of kids falling asleep at the dinner table. Just google “toddler falling asleep while eating”.
A personal acquaintance uploaded a video of their child crying at the table at breakfast time, having been given last night’s dinner for breakfast after refusing to eat it at dinner time, with comments of “good on you!” from others.

There is quite a well known and shared image of a Dad carrying his tantruming toddler by the front of her coat (I’ve added it here, if you haven’t seen it) which is generally shared as “funny” and “we’ve all been there”, the Daily Mail article about it calls it “the hilarious moment” and that the Mum can be heard “chuckling” during the video and she says “What's even funnier is that she is more than 3-feet-tall and over 37 pounds heavy and the jacket didn't break”.

There are also plenty of videos of kids falling off things, falling out of chairs, swings, pushchairs etc with “humorous” captions.

Ok so the parents in all these other videos didn’t then go on to murder their children, as it appears is the case with Star Hobson. But AIBU to feel uneasy about the rise and prevalence of “funny” videos making light of young children and/or showing them upset and in distress, and that the sharing, watching and making of these videos creates a desensitised attitude towards the children- that they are being used as humorous entertainment rather than their emotional needs being met.

So are these types of videos (obviously not including the later context of Star’s murder) as the trial says “disturbing and bizarre” and “no love is being shown” for the children, or are they just a bit of light hearted fun, poking fun at stressful parenting situations and showing solidarity for the tantrums, the sleepless nights and the rough and tumble?

I agree, it's the thin end of the wedge ..normalising laughter at a distressed child,

More disturbing are the influencers monetising stuff like this

I'm not sure it's all that deep tbh. Maybe it is?

A light hearted video taken by loving parents showing a funny or silly moment - fine (if you like viewing that sort of thing, doesn't massively float my boat but we've turned into a nation of attention seekers if Instagram is anything to go by)

A video taken by the likes of little Star's parents .. not fine because they're fucking evil monsters

How you tell the difference on a single viewing ... I don't know the answer to this.

I'd like to see a ban on children under the age of 13 being shown off by their parents on Instagram. You've only got to look at the Inghams, the Pelos, tie Saccone-jolys... these people are literally making a living off the back of their very young children

It's a fine line really - I remember my DS hating the reins and he'd just flop like a rag doll and end up spinning on the end of them which was pretty funny. I didn't film it though (and decided reins wouldn't work for him...)

It's the barrister's job to spin evidence to bolster their side of the argument. Just because they say it's clear evidence of a lack of love/care, it doesn't make it a universal truth.

I saw a video recently where the parents had a cake made for the toddler in the shape of their favourite teddy. The toddler got really distressed when they tried to cut the cake as he clearly thought they were taking a knife to his beloved toy. The parents clearly found it hilarious but I just thought it was a bit callous, even though it was obviously off the back of something well-intentioned.

Did star mother etc post those videos on sm?

I think there's a whole culture shift of filming everything with a view to posting it and this is part of it. I guess it's around wanting to be validated.

Filing upset children is vile.

Context is everything

I took a photo to o of my youngest who had fallen asleep in his food

Sent it to his dad. I've also picked up a child by her reins during a tantrum.

There was a spate of parents tricking their child that the parent had wiped poo on the child (melted choc), and the child being hysterical, I watched 2 that were sent to me, but they were upsetting, the parents hysterical with laughter and the whole thing filmed.

I do find sharing pictures and videos of your kids online a bit weird, more so when they’re distressed. The distress might be “silly” – over toast or Lego or whatever – but it’s still real. And children have a right to online privacy.

We can't see those videos - and I think it's very possible for the 'tone' to be entirely different compared to what we will see on tiktok. Brockhill is a woman who broke this childs leg and ribs before her death, and was filmed punching her repeatedly - they won't have been making videos from a place of affection/love

Honestly I think this is being twisted. Everyone has videos of their kid falling asleep or falling over. It’s not abusive. Obviously there has been abuse in this case but a video of the child falling asleep is not an example of that.

Yes I agree it is a fine line.

-Video of child falling off something- have they actually hurt themselves or not?
-Video of child falling asleep in food- probably just humorous. But the one I described of a child crying being given last night’s dinner for breakfast- less humorous and doesn’t sit well (note- I am not commenting on the practice of giving last night’s dinner for breakfast, but why the need to film/photograph it and show online the child crying?).
-Video of child going floppy and being carried by coat/reins… hmm

I’ve just searched “toddler tantrum” on tiktok, there are loads. Obviously people share on solidarity. “We’ve got this mamas” and “it happens to all of us” etc. That sense of community and sharing can be great. I’ve got 2 kids, I’ve had plenty or walk out of the supermarket and leave the trolley full of shopping moments.
One of the first I saw was a close up of a woman’s face crying, and a toddler can be heard screaming in the background. Caption reads “I’m tired. It’s 8am. I feel bad leaving her to cry. But she needs to realise this is not how to get what she wants”. If that had been one of the videos on Star Hobson’s mother’s phone it would be “bizarre”, “distressing”etc, but the comments mostly say “you’re an amazing mama”, “don’t give in, you’ve got this” “keep going, you’re doing great, mine is exactly the same”. There are a couple of comments saying things like “maybe try gentle parenting techniques?”

I've seen a couple on TikTok of the whole family pretending they can't see one of the children ie they've turned invisible. Sounds funny/silly when written down but in the clips I've seen the kid is panicking and so distressed, while the whole family tries not to laugh. Horrible to watch.

Social media was fairly new when my kids were very small and I definitely overhshared photos. I have gone back now and deleted everything as I feel like I've invaded their privacy tbh.

@Rubyupbeat

There was a spate of parents tricking their child that the parent had wiped poo on the child (melted choc), and the child being hysterical, I watched 2 that were sent to me, but they were upsetting, the parents hysterical with laughter and the whole thing filmed.

Yes and the “hilarious trend” of throwing a slice of cheese onto your toddler’s head…. Or squirting a water bottle in your baby’s face

I know exactly what you mean op and I agree with you.

I don’t like laughing at children being upset. Or people falling over. Stuff like that just doesn’t sit well with me at all.

I’ve got a photo of DC1 being followed by a clutch of cygnets and a mummy swan, which is adorable. The next photo is of her wailing in DH’s arms because mummy duck pecked her because she didn’t throw the duck food on the floor like she was told to. Third photo is of her cuddling her new teddy - in the shape of a swan.

Should I not have taken the middle photo? Should she loose the narrative of why she was bought that particular toy?
Was taking the photo abusive?
Not IMO as she was being comforted by another adult as I took it.

@Marmite27

I’ve got a photo of DC1 being followed by a clutch of cygnets and a mummy swan, which is adorable. The next photo is of her wailing in DH’s arms because mummy duck pecked her because she didn’t throw the duck food on the floor like she was told to. Third photo is of her cuddling her new teddy - in the shape of a swan.

Should I not have taken the middle photo? Should she loose the narrative of why she was bought that particular toy?
Was taking the photo abusive?
Not IMO as she was being comforted by another adult as I took it.

Would you/did you upload the middle photo on social media with caption “that’s what you get for not doing as you’re told with the duck food!”

Btw I have many photos of my daughter having tantrums and various mishaps (often to send to her dad to show what a doozy of a day I was having ). I’m not judging or saying “no you shouldn’t have those photos” to your question, I’m just discussing.

I don't really think those type of videos can be seen as any indication of anything really. I wouldn't say any of them indicate not caring about the child featured.

Plenty of people would film/photograph those things. Quite a few would share on their social media.

I think you're right and it's part of a general trend of people getting out their phone at the first opportunity to record any experience, positive or negative. People pay to attend music performances or other events just to spend the whole time stuck behind their phone screen getting a poor quality video of the experience they'll probably rarely ever watch again, instead of actually EXPERIENCING it.

People see an accident and get their phones out to photograph or record it, instead of offering help or just respecting the poor person's privacy and dignity.

So I think to immediately getting out your phone to record your child's positive and negative experiences is a predictable extension of how people's attitudes have changed. We don't want to just be in the moment, or necessarily do anything, we want to just have everything documented.

On the flip side, parenting is bloody hard and sometimes as much as you know your child is distressed you do need to be able to laugh a bit to yourself at the more ridiculous moments or it can all be a bit overwhelming. And we talk much more about our mental health and the difficulties of parenting parenting nowadays. Sometimes seeing that somebody else's child is having a 20 minute tantrum about the shape of their sandwiches provides a welcome reminder that we are all in this together.

So it's a balance. Does taking the odd photo or video of your child having a tantrum or falling asleep in their food make you a bad parent? No. But does regularly ignoring their needs, disregarding their distress and using photos and videos to mock them make you a bad parent? Absolutely.

YANBU. Parents who use their children for social media likes and attention are terrible people.

My DS has never fallen asleep at the table because I ensure he gets his naps and is rested. Children are there to be loved and cherished, not used for comedy effect.

It’s child abuse.

I also think it depends on context, I have a video of DS as a toddler having a massive fucking strop about wanting to wear his thomas the tank wellington boots. He was wearing them at the time.

He had gotten himself so worked up, that the best thing to do by that point was to ignore him, make sure he was safe and sit and wait.

This kind of thing used to be seen as a cutsey way of saying "we are all in the same boat" as parents. The difference is that a lot of them were candid moments and now it is all staged. People will now sit and wait and film their child's distress for extended periods to capture that one moment that will make them money.

It's child abuse and any "influencer" peddling this shit needs to be investigated, even just to make SURE.

www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/19/youtube-bans-familyofive-pranksters-michael-heather-martin-child-abuse-conviction

This is a case in point. Just look at those poor abusive fucks weeping into the camera because "That isn't who we are"

It’s an invasion of the child’s privacy to Instagram them, treating them like an object. Goes without saying that you should never set up your child to be distressed or hurt.

There was no social media when mine were small, but I certainly picked them up by the reins from time to time - they weren’t especially bothered by it, except that I’d prevented them doing whatever dangerous thing they intended.

I may have threatened to upload photos of a drunk teenager at some point - is that morally different? - but never actually did it.

So it's a balance. Does taking the odd photo or video of your child having a tantrum or falling asleep in their food make you a bad parent? No. But does regularly ignoring their needs, disregarding their distress and using photos and videos to mock them make you a bad parent? Absolutely.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. Context and intent are key.

One of the first I saw was a close up of a woman’s face crying, and a toddler can be heard screaming in the background. Caption reads “I’m tired. It’s 8am. I feel bad leaving her to cry. But she needs to realise this is not how to get what she wants”

But sometimes you do need to step away from a tantrumming toddler because your presence is feeding it. I have four DC and all have needed different support during the tantrums stage. I have one who needed me there to talk them through it, another who either needed me or didn't need me depending on what it was about, and two who absolutely did not need me and just had to be left to get it out of their systems and calm down before we could sort it out.

I'd like to see a ban on children under the age of 13 being shown off by their parents on Instagram. You've only got to look at the Inghams, the Pelos, tie Saccone-jolys... these people are literally making a living off the back of their very young children

Me too. At the very least there should be limits on how many hours a week they're allowed to spend making content, the child's earnings should be held in trust for them until they're 18, and there should be regular welfare checks carried out. One of my DC goes to theatre club and when they have performances she has to have a license from the council, there are rules on how many shows she can participate in, what time she can start/finish, how many breaks she must have, she has to be chaperoned backstage at all times, and so on. These rules should apply to children on these social media accounts too.

This poor poor little girl. She was literally a baby and treated like this. These two creatures are pure evil.