Is this a sackable offence?

[JCFJW]

Not me, asking on behalf of a teenage relative who is in a state after being told she may get suspended/sacked and she’s worried about it affecting her plans of working in hospitality abroad.

Potwash in a busy family restaurant. The training on chemical handling is a 5 minute online course. She has been there 5 months. Today she went to get detergent from the chemical cupboard. Key is kept in potwash area, chemical cupboard is downstairs next to the toilets so not locked in a staff only area. She forgot to lock the door after being in there and returned the key to its usual spot. It wasn’t noticed the whole night. Supervisor noticed it during closing and was fuming, and is going to arrange a disciplinary meeting. She told my relative “You could have killed a child if they had gone in and drank the chemicals.” The chemicals all have tight seals on.

This supervisor has bullied my relative and other potwash staff before before, making up problems. My relative was in the wrong but because of the supervisor’s previous behaviour I’m not sure how rational her reaction was and whether relative should expect punishment. Thoughts?

Niece was upset about the oven incident on the day it happened and spoke to me about it.

Supervisor was apparently in the kitchen nattering to the chef and loudly demanded niece come to get the pan. Niece arrived in the kitchen and the chef was using the paddle. The oven is one of those massive pizza ovens that goes twice as hot as an average home oven and the pan was right at the back. There were no oven gloves or anything as the chefs just use a paddle. The supervisor just stared at her and DN asked what to do.

The potwashers are never expected to get the pans themselves usually. The chefs bring them, so niece was already confused.

@Comefromaway

5 mins online training really isn’t adequate.

Exactly how much training does an adult need to understand

Poison = bad
Lock on poison cupboard = good

Seriously she’s a grown adult that in all honesty shouldn’t need to be told in training not to let the general public have access to poison.

How much training does someone need for this?

Surely she'd just ask the chef to borrow their paddle? Or gloves or whatever. Just really to show some initiative. But if it's as she says, why aren't you encouraging her to leave and go elsewhere?

Op, stop making excuses, she screwed up. We all do! Her supervisor isn’t a a bully from your descriptions, they are a person who works with clueless new employees.

Yes, pans in the oven are hot, pointing that out isn’t bullying your niece.

The best lesson she can get out of this, is how to admit she’s made mistakes, what is she doing to correct them going forward, and sadly pot washing does not garner respect and prestige. She needs to do whatever it takes to get past this to get her reference for Spain.

Then one day in the future she gets to use this experience while others are telling stories about crappy jobs when they were starting out.

Stop feeding the fire!

Maybe they were worried she'd lock the key in the cupboard?

Heath & safety professional here with tons of experience with chemicals of all kinds.

First, IF a customer’s child got into the unlocked cupboard unnoticed, AND got the lid off the container AND decided to drink it, AND didn’t immediately spit it out / throw up because of the horrible taste, even then it’s highly, highly unlikely they would die. Some cleaning and pot wash chemicals are pretty hazardous, but very unlikely to be lethal in the amounts that someone could actually get down them. Tell her to stop beating herself up.

Secondly, if any customer came to harm because they decided to help themselves to chemicals from a cupboard instead of getting on with their meal, the last person to be blamed would be a junior staff member who made an honest mistake. The employer’s duty is to put in place robust safety procedures, including control of hazardous chemicals, and they haven’t. For a start they haven’t put the chemicals cupboard in a safe location. If someone forgetting to lock a cupboard (which we all do, it’s foreseeable so you have to put checks in place to cover that possibility) leads to a dangerous situation, the employer is legally in the wrong.

If I were her I’d look for another job ASAP. This sounds like a bad employer with a nasty, bullying supervisor. The incident with the pizza oven is worrying, because it sounds like the batshit supervisor was somehow challenging her to get the hot pan out, without telling her how to do it safely. You really do not mess about with hot things in kitchens and it’s the supervisor’s responsibility to make sure that a junior worker is trained properly.

If I were her mum or dad, once she was out of there and in another job I’d give Environmental Health a call. I’m sure they’d have something to say if they visited.

@FictionalCharacter.

Thank you, I was torn over the chemical thing but thought I was going mad over the responses to the pizza oven thing.

I believe it was one of these according to niece:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274973271209?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338353466&toolid=20006&4236=%26customid%3Ds%253AGS%253Bgc%253AEAIaIQobChMIgZu-zaja8wIVVIjVCh0TWQS4EAkYASABEgK-XfD_BwE%253Bpt%253A1%253Bchoc%253A2&customid=s%3AGS%3Bgc%3AEAIaIQobChMIgZu-zaja8wIVVIjVCh0TWQS4EAkYASABEgK-XfD_BwE%3Bpt%3A1%3Bchoc%3A1&gbraid=0AAAAADtppYfvw6anGK1TQaW4cbgfHGzw7&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgZu-zaja8wIVVIjVCh0TWQS4EAkYASABEgK-XfD_BwE

I imagine it takes a lot of training to cover all of the health and safety on those, and that’s for kitchen staff. Nevermind the potwasher. Niece says the supervisor seemed to get a kick out of her confusion as the chef was busy with the only paddle and there are NO gloves in the entire kitchen as you’d have to stick your whole arm in anyway. Hence why they have a paddle. I think the supervisor would have been in the shit if niece had burnt herself. Apparently the chef then took control and insisted he get the pan out so he must have noticed.

Whilst that isn’t relevant to niece’s mistake, it shows the supervisor has it in for her hence why I wanted to ask whether how the mistake was being dealt with was standard or not.

[quote JCFJW]@FictionalCharacter.

Thank you, I was torn over the chemical thing but thought I was going mad over the responses to the pizza oven thing.

I believe it was one of these according to niece:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274973271209?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338353466&toolid=20006&4236=%26customid%3Ds%253AGS%253Bgc%253AEAIaIQobChMIgZu-zaja8wIVVIjVCh0TWQS4EAkYASABEgK-XfD_BwE%253Bpt%253A1%253Bchoc%253A2&customid=s%3AGS%3Bgc%3AEAIaIQobChMIgZu-zaja8wIVVIjVCh0TWQS4EAkYASABEgK-XfD_BwE%3Bpt%3A1%3Bchoc%3A1&gbraid=0AAAAADtppYfvw6anGK1TQaW4cbgfHGzw7&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgZu-zaja8wIVVIjVCh0TWQS4EAkYASABEgK-XfD_BwE

I imagine it takes a lot of training to cover all of the health and safety on those, and that’s for kitchen staff. Nevermind the potwasher. Niece says the supervisor seemed to get a kick out of her confusion as the chef was busy with the only paddle and there are NO gloves in the entire kitchen as you’d have to stick your whole arm in anyway. Hence why they have a paddle. I think the supervisor would have been in the shit if niece had burnt herself. Apparently the chef then took control and insisted he get the pan out so he must have noticed.

Whilst that isn’t relevant to niece’s mistake, it shows the supervisor has it in for her hence why I wanted to ask whether how the mistake was being dealt with was standard or not.[/quote]
Except, that the supervisor actually said to not stick her arm in the oven…. Said pan was in a hot pizza oven that was on. Niece asked what to do and supervisor rolled her eyes and said “Don’t put your hand in there, ovens are hot for starters.”

Honestly Op, you are way too invested in your niece’s temporary job, These are supposed to be the jobs you do stupid things at, have stupid bosses, and move on to bigger and better things from.

As a manager, my advice for the best outcome for your niece long term, do not instill a ‘they are out to get me’ attitude in her at this stage. By all means she should stick up for herself when it’s warranted, but in the examples you’ve given she’s made the mistakes.

(Ok, she didn’t make a mistake with the oven, but she didn’t ask the brightest question… her question should have been ‘right then, what does chef normally use to remove the pan” instead of “what do I do?”

Yes this...

But COSHH trumps any company policy - and he should have carried out a risk assessment and justify his storage methods, access and security in a busy restaurant.

If he hasn't dome that properly, he can't just blame the incident on an 'forgetful' staff member.

The first step is to remove risk, then mitigation/reduce; because mistakes happen. The whole point of risk assessing is to try to mitigate for the human error which WILL occur at some point.

• So having a self locking door with key pad removes the risk the door gets left unlocked. Thats his issue not OPs.
• Secondly they should be reducing the danger of chemicals they use. In places where I have worked we dont carry harmful liquid chemicals anymore. We have san-tabs for the exact reason someone might accidentally leave a bottle out during use.

@saltinesandcoffeecups At age 18, faced with an unpleasant supervisor and an unfamiliar task, I might not have asked the brightest question either.

The way to teach someone to do a dangerous task is not to stand there and get them to work it out, without giving them the right safety kit, and eyeroll while you tell them what not to do. You teach them how to it safely, always. OP's neice could easily have got severe burns. The employer would have been liable and the supervisor could have been prosecuted. Health & Safety at Work Act, section 7. Unlimited fine if convicted. And a criminal record.

@saltinesandcoffeecups

I think it’s a bit iffy for a supervisor to tell a member of staff to get an item out of a 300 degree burning hot industrial pizza oven (and this isn’t part of the job description I’m sure!) without ANY training on using such a machine whilst the chef is using the only appropriate tool to do so. Niece was absolutely bemused and has never forgot it. Do you really think there aren’t any health and safety guidelines on an untrained potwash handling a 300 degree oven whilst it’s on? Whilst the appropriate tool is unavailable? Really? I remember thinking it was incredibly weird at the time when she first mentioned it, I encouraged her to leave then but she wanted to stay.

It does affect how I see this supervisor’s response to the chemical cupboard incident when she actively put an untrained staff member in that position, to be honest. My sister and her husband know about the oven thing and that’s why they aren’t taking the chemical mistake as DN’s fault (which it is, absolutely) because they never got over the craziness of the oven incident when told about it. It had been forgotten about until tonight because obviously I have more to think about than my niece’s potwash job, I think the whole thing is utterly bizarre though and I hope she takes my advice to sack the job off when we go out for lunch tomorrow.

The management chain of a restaurant is mostly general manager, deputy then assistant followed by (often very young inexperienced) supervisors to waiters. Your niece shouldn’t be getting so upset about the supervisors telling off.

If I was her I’d contact the general manager myself, ask for a meeting regarding the key incident and apologise. Then continue to discuss the actions of the supervisor if she genuinely feels bullied in the work place. Regardless of people saying it’s a ‘temporary’ job, bullying should be addressed at any employment level. If she works for one of the chains such as Greenking/M&B i imagine such accusations would be taken seriously.

In the nicest possible way tho, I wonder if your niece is ready for a work environment abroad as it sounds as she’s only just finding her feet in the adult employment world in this country. Perhaps it would be better if she waited a little while.

Could your relative look for a different job, maybe waitressing or shop floor? Loads of cafes near my work haven't reopened yet as they can't get staff, (and that's in a city centre) so maybe it'll be worthwhile her asking around?

Do you really need references for dishwashing/waitressing? I got those kind of jobs by just walking in when I was at school pretty recently

Old peoples homes are always short of pot washers in our area, I think your neice should get another job and walk away.

Whilst some more knowledgeable have pointed out legalities l'm not sure it's going to help.

Arranging a meeting with a senior manager to apologise about not following a known procedure then proceeding to complain about another manager sounds like a recipe to be dismissed.

DN should move on to something else and forget about it.

Well I agree with @FictionalCharacter about the general management dynamics here. This is all suggestive of general bad vibes and she shouldn’t need any more evidence to know that this is one of those places you walk away from. There’s loads of demand right now so she should be able to find somewhere else I’d have thought.

Having said that, it does sound as though everyone is massively overthinking this. She did mess up. She apologised profusely, that’s perfectly sufficient. Her workplace are going to try and rub her nose in it, well sod them, she can move elsewhere. But really, don’t give it so much thought.

You can't be sacked for a hypothetical scenario. A warning should suffice. Can you go with her to the meeting? She is allowed to take someone with her (usually a colleague) but given her youth, she can request a family member.

I might be under thinking this but this is a hard work, minimum wage job with a shitty supervisor. While your niece made a mistake, she clearly actually does give a shit and wants to do well - in the hard work, minimum wage job with a shitty supervisor. She should resign and find a job where they don’t treat her badly - at a time when the hospitality industry is crying out for good staff. I bet she’d make a lot less mistakes in that environment too.

Honestly, some times you need to stick with something and others you need to say bollocks to it. I think it’s clear which one this is. The supervisor can wash a few pots.

Your niece should look for a different job, this one sounds not good for her physical and mental health.
And that should be her priority, she will find another job hopefully without a bullying mean unreasonable supervision.

She made a minor error but she basically has zero employment rights and her boss sounds like a cock.

What you need to be teaching her about is proportionally and fair treatment. Tell her to not put up with this treatment and find another job immediately. She won't last 5 minutes abroad if a minor issue dealing with a bully causes this much upset. This should be far and away your biggest concern here.

If it were somebody else who had reprimanded her, I wouldn’t have given it as much thought. But this supervisor is a nasty, nasty piece of work who in the past has gone ‘ew’ and recoiled at my niece for disclosing her chronic condition the day after being in A&E with it. She didn’t even mention the condition, just that “Yes the reason I had to go yesterday was because my chronic condition flared up badly” which triggered the nasty response.

Niece has had a mental health crisis in the past hence why me (we’re very close) and her parents are so touched up on these things. Spain will be with her friends who are brilliant and they’ll deffo look after her.

So my niece’s concern is that due to this supervisor’s previous behaviour, things aren’t going to be followed by the book over niece’s mistake. Niece has expressed this concern as well. But regardless we’re going for lunch tomorrow and I’m going to tell her to sack the whole sorry thing off.

You sound like a fab aunt, Op.

I hope that everything turns out ok for your niece.

Goodness it’s 6 in the morning. Been up feeding baby so thought I’d have another look at the thread thinking it was about 3am 🤦‍♀️ I’m off to bed.