AIBU worry that the next generation are not actually that "accepting"

[Bonsaibreaker]

Long story short but chatting with 14 yo DD this evening about many subjects and a family members "views" came up. For background this family member in my view is racist and homophobic.
DD stated FM should be cancelled. Never allowed to speak, voice their opinion ever.

I pointed out to DD that freedom of speech means just that. We can all hold opinions others don't like but we are all free to voice, protest and gather regardless.
DD is of an age where discussion/debate is not an option apparently and if you are offended by another's views you just cancel them instead of debating or accepting their view as different to yours.

This worries me as instead of challenging different opinions the next generation are just silencing them.

YANBU = yes we are growing an intolerant society

YABU = They deserve to be cancelled

YANBU OP.

Tractot

What do you mean I have gone too far?

@Bonsaibreaker

I dont want DD to just ignore him. I want her to say no. I want her to challenge him. I have and despite my arguments being ignored I want the next generation to challenge him too.

He never listened to me and he probably won't listen to her but I want him to know its not just my generation its every generation after me.
I want him to see he is outdated, wrong, a bigot.
It is probably a losing battle but we all start somewhere.

It’s so tricky op, I really feel for your dd. I remember challenging an uncle of mine. It was regarding women being in the kitchen. But it was ‘just joking’ no one else challenged him, not my mum or dad, or brother, nan. No one they all sat there. It was very awkward afterwards, and I didn’t see him for a long time. Mainly because of the way it made me feel, but also because why would I want anything to do with someone who felt like that about women, particularly as you know I’m one.

Why should I have to listen to his bullshit and give it my time of day.

Phones and internet safety are not the same as racism!

Most non white people know exactly when someone has been racist towards them. And I’ll tell you that the person being racist does too.

There have been very few/ aka almost no incidents in my life (I have lived on three continents) where I have thought ‘oh I wonder if that person meant that thing quite like that.’

It’s the same as sexism. If a guy says to a woman ‘I don’t like it when you smile at other guys’ he’s not a little bit sexist or a tiny bit possessive. It’s a massive red flag.

On the other hand, my own response to racist family members growing up was actually to leave the room when they started. I had learned that argument was futile- it just got heated and shouty, I was never going to change their mind.

So I see what your DD is saying.

Problem is, people define different things as racist, and homophobic, and bigoted.................

As a pp said, there is a world of difference between someone hating on/beating up gay men and women, and using the N word, and deplorable behaviour like making monkey noises and throwing bananas onto the football pitch etc................. and someone like that woman a pp mentioned, who expressed a genuine concern (to Gordon Brown,) about the number of immigrants coming over to the UK.

I deplore racist and homophobic behaviour, and think genuine racism and homophobia and bigotry should be called out. However, there does seem to be a hardcore of certain people, usually young, but not always, as I know a few 40 to 60 year olds like this, who call 'racist!' if someone says they disagree with so many illegal immigrants (on the boats) being allowed into the UK when we have so many of our own to look after. And they are called bigoted and hateful, if they use the wrong terminology... (Regarding a person's skin colour, or sexual orientation, or disability etc....) Many people who do use the wrong terminology occasionally very rarely mean any harm, and are almost always not 'bigoted!'

And some people are instantly accused of being thick and racist if they voted for Brexit, even though some of the most industrious and intelligent people I know voted for Brexit. I have known some far left people completely ghost someone they previously got on with well, when they discovered they voted Conservative. Not even a discussion with them or anything, they were just dead to them.

I know one woman at work who refused to engage with or acknowledge someone she knew, and called them a bigoted cunt (lovely!) because they said they couldn't tell the difference between someone from Malaysia and someone from Indonesia, as they looked similar to her. That was not racist or bigoted, she was stating a fact. She could not tell the difference. She was labelled a massive racist.

I am white, and blonde, and blue eyed, and British, and have been mistaken a number of times (when in Spain, Italy, and Greece,) for a Swede or a Norwegian. Was I offended? Not even slightly. Then again, the Indonesian woman was not offended either; it was the white, 30 year old British woman who was offended on her behalf...

So incredibly narrow-minded, intolerant, and bigoted, and yes, I agree with you @Bonsaibreaker many of these 'social justice warriors' are not remotely 'accepting' at all. These type of far left judgemental people display the kind of abhorrent and intolerant behaviour that they accuse others of. Yet they can't see it.

I am also very pleased to see such a high vote for YANBU. Showing that the tide is turning on mumsnet!

@SparklyLeprechaun

I had the same views at 14. It is a very black or white age. I don't think it says anything about the next generation, we all become wiser with experience.

I'm not sure why losing a zero tolerance approach to racism or homophobia would be described as becoming wiser. I have honestly found myself getting more and more progressive and angry as I get older, and whilst I'm wavering a bit I've gone from young Tory to 18 year old labour to [much older] "Corbyn was far from perfect, but basically about right and I'd take him right now as PM above most others". [Remembers GC vs TRA. Damn]

@LuchiMangsho

I mean as a non white person, can I say that someone expecting me to DEBATE a racist viewpoint would not be met with politeness?

It doesn’t cause me harm or distress to be told I am a lesser human being because of the colour of my skin or my sexuality??!

This is pretty much the only viewpoint that has any weight behind it on this thread.

I think its a lot to expect your daughter (who I assume is also black or mixed heritage) to debate with a racist older family member, when she's seen her black mothet try and fail for years.

I think at 14 she's the same as the previous generation. Things are black and white for many kids that age - good vs bad, fair vs unfair, things are either right or wrong to them. Their brains need more time to develop and they need more life experience before they can grasp nuance and shades of grey. I was quite stubborn in my views at that age. It will pass.

Plus she's not exactly wrong about the racist/homophobic family member. That shit shouldn't be tolerated really but I must admit I have older family members who are the same and I never challenge it, I just ignore/change the subject. Unless it was said in front of the person they're insulting then I'd challenge it but otherwise there's no point, they're never going to change so it's not worth wasting time and anger on them.

Mumsnet has actually always been a really horrible place for non white people. I don’t think any tides have changed.

And when people say they don’t like immigrants as my white South African friend often says (people don’t realise she’s one), when they do ‘they say oh we don’t mean people like YOU.’

I am frankly tired of having to prove my humanity and worth because of the colour of my skin by being even better.

Really? You're a black woman and your white family member is openly racist infront of you/to you and you still have contact with them?

I am going to bow out of this thread aka not debate it because in 2021 being told that it is my job to be open to debates about racism is frankly way too depressing. (I am well aware of how racist the world is btw- I just lived through Trump’s America which was fun).

I can welcome your right to freedom of speech while also not wanting to listen to it myself.

So I’ve heard racism / homophobia / sexism / transphobia in a wide multitude of forms already. I’ve listened, I’ve reasoned, I’ve debated. I’m still hearing the same shit. I don’t want to listen to it anymore.

I’m entitled to peace and quiet. I’m entitled to live a calm and peaceful life. I don’t need to keep engaging in the same tired old battles, with same tired old bigots.

Have your discussions, enjoy them, just not with me.

@Thatsplentyjack

Really? You're a black woman and your white family member is openly racist infront of you/to you and you still have contact with them?

And expects her presumably non white daughter to try and debate him, despite acknowledging herself she's tried for years and failed.

Don't you think watching this is probably having an impact on your daughter? She's probably protective of you and seeing this play out must be very difficult

Many on this thread need to go and look up a legal definition of 'hate speech'. It's not what some think it is

I dont want DD thinking she can be complacent.

Walking away is the easy option and changes very little.
I am trying to teach her that if you believe in something it's OK to stay and fight. You just have to fight the right way.
No its not her job to educate a 74 yo racist white man. However as the next generation she as we all did before her have a responsibility to at least try.

This thread is about tolerance of others opinions good or bad in my view, I shall read them all.

Unfortunately not engaging in debate isn't just what younger people do.
I have recently been 'cancelled' by two people in their 40s who I volunteer with. I expressed a different point of view and asked for further discussion. I was told I was missing the point and shut me down. Surely if I was missing the point we needed to discuss it further?
I've never been in this situation before as I've always worked places were discussion was accepted or even encouraged.

@Bonsaibreaker

But technically, what the FM is expressing is actually hate speech, if it’s motivated by racism and homophobia. Under the guise of freedom of speech.

No its not.
They do not cause harm or distress to others it is a personal opinion.
While I disagree with them and debate it endlessly I cannot control their thoughts nor would I want to.

Instead I point out where they are wrong. I use facts and data to shoot their arguments down.

There are nearly 8 billion people on earth. They are from many different cultures, religions who decides who's opinions are wrong and who's are right?

But racism does cause hurt and distress?

I think every generation imagines their blend of bigotries and tolerances is 'the norm' and judges accordingly.

I can remember as a child, my dad was quite leftie and very keen to tell us what an awful thing discrimination was, and how important it was not to be racist or sexist or homophobic. But, of course, it was natural to think queers were disgusting, and obviously mum did the childcare because she was innately better and it, and the gypsies probably did nick stuff after all ...

I am sure when my DD is old enough to start lecturing me, she will be quite able to tell me what an awful person I am, and I will probably feel she should be more accepting as my views are just my opinions, aren't they? Since I am such a tolerant liberal type, and all.

(I will obviously try to question my beliefs if she does lecture me, but I bet we'll disagree sometimes too.)

@LuchiMangsho

Mumsnet has actually always been a really horrible place for non white people. I don’t think any tides have changed.

And when people say they don’t like immigrants as my white South African friend often says (people don’t realise she’s one), when they do ‘they say oh we don’t mean people like YOU.’

I am frankly tired of having to prove my humanity and worth because of the colour of my skin by being even better.

I love this one.

"How so?" And wait. People blush to the tips of their hair often.

I also deliberately refer to myself as an immigrant rather than an expat (stupid nonsense) and align myself with other immigrants because white immigrants I think have a duty of solidarity.

@Bonsaibreaker

I dont want DD thinking she can be complacent.

Walking away is the easy option and changes very little.
I am trying to teach her that if you believe in something it's OK to stay and fight. You just have to fight the right way.
No its not her job to educate a 74 yo racist white man. However as the next generation she as we all did before her have a responsibility to at least try.

This thread is about tolerance of others opinions good or bad in my view, I shall read them all.

Why isn’t her lack of contact with him enough to teach him that his views are not acceptable to her! Why if the only way for her to communicate her disgust with his views be to debate with him.

This isn’t done uni debating club, this is her home or family. Why should she teach him. Let him learn from her absence.
Silence speaks volumes to.

Honestly OP you should have cut contact with your family member a long time ago. Your dd shouldn't have to deal with that shit at such a young age, and I'm assuming he's been around her whole life. Watching you fail to change his mind for 14 years will surely have impacted her in some way.

@Bonsaibreaker

I'd argue its complacent to keep debating the same person for years about racism when youre a black woman who's children are being exposed to those views and knowing that their mother has exhaustively tried to get a family member to see them, and their skin colour as equal for years. Time comes when it's important to protect yourself and your daughter

Why are you asking your daughter to be around someone that thinks she and her mother are inferior because of skin? Let alone encouraging her to engage him on it?

@Bonsaibreaker

I dont want DD thinking she can be complacent.

Walking away is the easy option and changes very little.
I am trying to teach her that if you believe in something it's OK to stay and fight. You just have to fight the right way.
No its not her job to educate a 74 yo racist white man. However as the next generation she as we all did before her have a responsibility to at least try.

This thread is about tolerance of others opinions good or bad in my view, I shall read them all.

I disagree. It is not your 14 year old daughters responsibility to try and educate him on racism. A grown man knows how to do that, he knows damn well. That is not tolerance of opinions. Racism is not an opinion, it is wrong. End of. There is no discussion