AIBU worry that the next generation are not actually that "accepting"

[Bonsaibreaker]

Long story short but chatting with 14 yo DD this evening about many subjects and a family members "views" came up. For background this family member in my view is racist and homophobic.
DD stated FM should be cancelled. Never allowed to speak, voice their opinion ever.

I pointed out to DD that freedom of speech means just that. We can all hold opinions others don't like but we are all free to voice, protest and gather regardless.
DD is of an age where discussion/debate is not an option apparently and if you are offended by another's views you just cancel them instead of debating or accepting their view as different to yours.

This worries me as instead of challenging different opinions the next generation are just silencing them.

YANBU = yes we are growing an intolerant society

YABU = They deserve to be cancelled

I want them to discuss and debate both points of view.

There aren't 'both points of view' for racism, homophobia or any other form of hate speech.

It's alarming you think your DD has any responsibility to discuss 'both sides' of such matters & essentially educate the (presumably older) FM.

It's entirely fair for DD to refuse to engage with such person.

However, 'cancelling' someone is an approach & a terminology i whole-heartedly reject. It's nonsensical as you can't cancel a person. It's being used to mean 'destroy their personal or professional lives, and shut them down from engaging in any activity, regardless of whether it's linked to their views or not'. And it's massively abusing the power some groups or individuals acquire.

Individuals should be called to account for their expressed views & actions, and this might have consequences which should be enacted through due process.

I grew up in a household where loud passionate debate was encouraged.

I don't want to silent my opponents. I want to challenge and debate.

Bring the arguments into the light. It's the healthy way.

I mean as a non white person, can I say that someone expecting me to DEBATE a racist viewpoint would not be met with politeness?

It doesn’t cause me harm or distress to be told I am a lesser human being because of the colour of my skin or my sexuality??!

They do not cause harm or distress to others it is a personal opinion.

What?!

Of course their expression of racist or homophobic views causes harm, regardless of where it's expressed. It doesn't need to be targeted at eg a gay person or black person to be hateful & dangerous.

The beliefs that stand behind their speech must be challenged and never accepted. Not debated or given due consideration.

Also, a lot of people who express racist, sexist views etc are simply ill-informed and are absolutely capable of changing their views. The answer is to talk to them, explain why their views are wrong, find out why they believe those things, etc, rather than creating a “them and us” scenario in which you start to see anyone with differing opinions as wholly inferior beings. Of course there are some people with whom it’s impossible to engage, but IME they’re in the minority. As a society we can only move forwards if we communicate openly with each other.

And ‘where are you from?’ is not offensive but it’s offensive if I say ‘South London’ and you say ‘no really where are you from?’ And people who refuse to see this are the reason we need diversity training in the first place.

Most non white people are so used to microaggressions (nothing micro about something that makes me feel like shit btw), that we genuinely wouldn’t bat a lid.

I use facts and data to shoot their arguments down.

Someone who holds & voices hateful views will not be open to changing their opinion based on facts or data.

They did not arrive at their position through any evidence in the first place.

@LuchiMangsho

I mean as a non white person, can I say that someone expecting me to DEBATE a racist viewpoint would not be met with politeness?

It doesn’t cause me harm or distress to be told I am a lesser human being because of the colour of my skin or my sexuality??!

Yes, agree entirely.

Actually there is actual evidence by sociologists and economists that very few people’s views are ever changed by debate and persuasion.

It’s nice to think that this can happen. It’s actually not true. And in my personal experience on everything from sexuality to race to politics I have never met a person whose worldview has shifted significantly through debate (as opposed to changing societal norms and not being able to say sexist or racist things).

@LuchiMangsho

Actually there is actual evidence by sociologists and economists that very few people’s views are ever changed by debate and persuasion.

It’s nice to think that this can happen. It’s actually not true. And in my personal experience on everything from sexuality to race to politics I have never met a person whose worldview has shifted significantly through debate (as opposed to changing societal norms and not being able to say sexist or racist things).

💯 this.

@TractorAndHeadphones

Well in my home it me. I decide what I find acceptable in my home.
Outside the home I hear what I find sexist and homophobic comments all the time. Sometimes
I challenge them sometimes I can’t be arsed, but I don’t have to give them my time to debate with them.

The op wants her dd to debate with the FM, it’s hard to do that all the time.

Sciurus83
Not when it comes to racism and homophobia, no we don't need to tolerate those views and hold space for them any more they are not tolerable in a civilised society

Nobody is tolerating those views. The opportunity to debate them and through debate we can change closed minds, is all I want is all I ask.
Not this cancel culture. Silence those who have apposing views is a dictatorship.
Do you want a dictatorship?

@SachaStark2

But technically, what the FM is expressing is actually hate speech, if it’s motivated by racism and homophobia. Under the guise of freedom of speech.

Saying something racist or homophobic is generally not in itself a crime, though it's more likely to be in Scotland.

I think the problem with debate is it has to be an open debate from both sides. Is FM likely to listen to your kid?

I have a racist family member, I have cut them out due to this. I simply do not wish to spend time with someone who has said the things they do. Mumsnet would probably call me low contact as I go to family parties where they are also present but don't engage. I'm not fb friends either

I'd never use the word cancel, but presumably another person could say I have. The low contact/no contact/grey rock has always been used though in these situations

I dont debate them. A) because its pointless. They wouldn't listen and b) because I don't want to bring each family occasion into a debate. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want you DC to be starting debates at family parties etc. That makes me look like I'm the problem and would be accused of starting fights

I agree also that as a gay woman, having to "debate" with people who actively are against my family and is harmful usually. I simply don't engage

I remember being at university back in the previous century and working for an organization that was actively targeted by a notorious hate group. We would get vile mail and the worst were the faxes because those cost us precious money in toner. While we didn’t condone the active harassment, we still defended the groups right to exist and engage in more generic political actions, even speaking on campus. We had the ability to counter with our own, better message.

I can’t condone a society that seeks to control individual beliefs and speech. That ideal is simply too important to sacrifice.

But race and sexuality are protected characteristics, so it's against the law to discriminate against them so....

LuchiMangsho

I dont expect it to be.

As a black woman I do not debate racisim but I do discuss it. Its a part of my everyday life.

While I think “cancelling” is wanky and overblown, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to cut or minimise contact with someone you know who holds distressing or hateful views. There is no point, after a certain amount, of challenging people who are committed to being racist and homophobic. After a while it’s exhausting, pointless and upsetting emotional labour that maybe your DD just doesn’t want to do.

I don’t buy that the younger generation trying to be open minded automatically means you have to try and make peace with racist homophobes. Tolerance is funny like that, because at a certain point you have to be intolerant of intolerance.

Is the DD planning to have nothing to do with the family member? Or just to refuse to listen to their racist views? There's an enormous difference.

And you can "cancel" a person. She can cut him out of her life if she doesn't like what he believes or the things he says.

@Thatsplentyjack

But race and sexuality are protected characteristics, so it's against the law to discriminate against them so....

If you say something racist at work, aimed at someone, then you and your employer may be sued by the colleague concerned. But it's not a crime.

Two reasons I think you're right.

One, know thine enemy.

Second, post Brexit it's obvious that people who have been told they are wrong constantly will stop talking but they will use their vote and any other power they have to screw us all anyway.

Let them talk, use intelligence and facts to argue with them.

I have teenage siblings, very woke and up to date with all the latest inclusive initiatives (I say that positively!).

One of them started to refuse even listening to anyone who disagreed with their views on trans people. If you mentioned being against mixed sex toilets, or wanted to open a debate on transwomen competing in single sex sports, etc... you were immediately told you were transphobic, narrow-minded, and your opinion didn't matter.

I, and my parents, constantly challenged them on why would the opposite party not be able to express their opinion, how it's important we all have a platform to share our views from, as long as they're not racist or homophobic though.

I remember a few years ago that a far right group were planning a march in my city. There was a debate as to whether they should be allowed but my (black) friend was very much “let them match, freedom of speech is the most important thing”. I realised he was right. We are going down a very dark path when we “cancel” speech. As an above PP said, bring this stuff into the light.

I think the premise that noone changes their views sounds bogus.
It's a well worn path in life for many people.
Probably hard to capture for a social scientist running a study though.