AIBU worry that the next generation are not actually that "accepting"

[Bonsaibreaker]

Long story short but chatting with 14 yo DD this evening about many subjects and a family members "views" came up. For background this family member in my view is racist and homophobic.
DD stated FM should be cancelled. Never allowed to speak, voice their opinion ever.

I pointed out to DD that freedom of speech means just that. We can all hold opinions others don't like but we are all free to voice, protest and gather regardless.
DD is of an age where discussion/debate is not an option apparently and if you are offended by another's views you just cancel them instead of debating or accepting their view as different to yours.

This worries me as instead of challenging different opinions the next generation are just silencing them.

YANBU = yes we are growing an intolerant society

YABU = They deserve to be cancelled

I think you're homing in on 'debate' too much when "I want DD to be able to debate why racism and homophobia are wrong" really isn't up for debate, is it?
Critical thinking is where you want to lead her.
I think you've blurred the lines between differences of opinion and hate speech, OP. Sorry, but I don't care how nice FM is. They say Jeffrey Dahmer was a charmer. I still wouldn't have a drink with the guy. Not comparing your FM to a serial killer, but you don't need to be nice about a racist just because they give the kids extra sweeties when they visit. A lot of assholes are lovely people and vice versa.

@Heiferr

This thread proves exactly why we still have such an issue with racism. So many people categorising racism as a "difference of opinion". If that is what is being perpetuated in homes, I worry more about that than I ever would about cancel culture.

I completely agree. I can't quite believe how many people are calling out and out racism and homophobia "a difference of opinion", its not.

@Bonsaibreaker

Why isn’t her lack of contact with him enough to teach him that his views are not acceptable to her! Why if the only way for her to communicate her disgust with his views be to debate with him.

Nowhere have I said she is lack of contact. You made that up.

@Bonsaibreaker

You said she wants to cancel him.

I’ve not said she had no contact with him currently. I’ve not made anything up.

I’m suggesting that rather then debate with him she has no contact with him, and that teaches him a lesson, rather than her engaging him.

Why should she had to teach him?

Op, while I am against censorship and cancel culture, I think you are taking the wrong approach with your child and this family member.

No individual ever has a responsibility to engage with a person expressing hateful ideas. Refusing to be closely involved with that person is always an option. Limiting contact with a family member that causes you pain isn’t cancel culture. If your child were trying to get your family member fired, removed from housing, or otherwise ostracized by the greater society, that would be engaging in cancellation. Your teen is just doing what normal people do, recognizing a harmful situation and disengaging.

Cancelling is very powerful. It is like casting someone on desert island. It is an attempt to cut someone out of their community, which humans need to survive. We are hard-wired to interact with others and removal of that interaction is pretty cruel.

Wishing to cancel someone is as lacking in empathy as the other person being rasist. It is used as a punishment because the other person has broken some social code.

Obviously it doesn't work like that in real life because it would need everyone to cut the "offender" off. And that doesn't happen. But that is what the OP's dd is trying to do. Teenagers are still developing empathy. This could be an opportunity to train it.

You are neither right nor wrong. It’s also ironic that you want people to vote on this lol.

Your racist relative deserves to have their views rigorously rebuffed but there comes a point where a stubborn person who won’t look at things from a different view point maybe need to just be ignored. Which is not dissimilar to being ‘cancelled.’

Your daughter is also taking an extreme hardline and may need to consider generational, cultural, educational opportunities, lack of access to travel etc in judging if this person should be cancelled or if they can be persuaded that they should be more tolerant through discussion or meeting a wider circle of people.

I feel sorry for gen z as the fear of being judged on social media is palpable for them. To me it is a hobby, a networking tool, a debating platform, and a place to share information. That’s because I grew up in a time when the internet was not wide spread which gives me perspective.

To these kids it is there whole platform onto the world and how they are perceived there is much more important than the ‘real world’ They feel they can’t put a foot wrong. If the consensus is to ‘cancel’ someone it would be very hard to go against the consensus (luckily the consensus is usually about positive concepts like anti racism etc)

This also spills into other things. Myself and DH have noticed that the younger colleagues we know who are just starting out are often very reluctant to give their own opinions on things or to put forward their own ideas. They are also easily swayed by a more popular seeming view point, They are scared to be wrong.

It’s not really their fault. Critical thinking, debate, and media studies should be part of the compulsory core curriculum. But Michael Gove really narrowed education down so that it was just about transferable employment skills. The Oxbridge elite don’t want the general public using critical thinking. Employers will eventually struggle anyway as in most cases staff do need to think for themselves to bring about any sort of innovation.

@Bonsaibreaker

Racism is not difference of opinion. That is completely minimising it. It is hurtful, damaging and it destroys people's lives.

Nobody is minimising it ffs.

7 billion people on the planet some of them are racist. Should they be? Of course not but that doesn't mean racisim doesn't exist!
Some people are misogynistic
Some are sexist.
Some are homophobic
We need to challenge those views in order to change them instead of pretending 7 billion people all think the same way. That's just stupid.

That's fine, and they absolutely should be challenged, but I don't think it's up to your 14 year old daughter to challenge a family member on their views when she doesn't want to.

Most people hold a rather more nuanced worldview at 40 than they did at 14. Your DD probably will, too. The subject matter (racism, etc.) may change over time and through different generations, but the basic pattern really doesn't.

Bringham

You've allowed this in the guise of teaching her not to walk away, you've exposed her to this for years by your own admission. Its okay to not engage with someone who is being actively hurtful to her

Of course I exposed her to this. I am black their father is white do you think racisim is new to them?
What I hope I am teaching her is not to walk away. I hope I am teaching her to fight for the opinions she holds and not back down to peer pressure or social media.
Yes she loves her uncle and he's only ever been kind to her but that should not mean she cannot challenge him.

YANBU - I do think views should be challenged and I don't think that people should be automatically canceled, even if their opinions are abhorrent.

When I think the issue lies on both sides, is that tolerance and respect seem to have been completely left by the wayside. And by tolerance I mean just that - not to be confused with acceptance.

There was a self ID discussion in the comments of a Simple Politics Instagram post recently and I nearly fell off my chair in shock as it unfolded. Tolerance and respect was front and centre. The people discussing did not agree, but no one was called anything nasty and it really appeared as though everyone was looking for common ground.

I thought my eyes were broken, it's become so unusual.

@Bonsaibreaker

Racism is not difference of opinion. That is completely minimising it. It is hurtful, damaging and it destroys people's lives.

Nobody is minimising it ffs.

7 billion people on the planet some of them are racist. Should they be? Of course not but that doesn't mean racisim doesn't exist!
Some people are misogynistic
Some are sexist.
Some are homophobic
We need to challenge those views in order to change them instead of pretending 7 billion people all think the same way. That's just stupid.

But you are. You are saying it is a difference of opinion. Ffs yourself!.

Although I can see where you’re coming from, being racist and homophobic AND specifically discriminating against people with protected characteristics is against the law - equality act 2010. So there’s not really a debate to be had and society has deemed these views unacceptable.

However there are many very areas of course which does make it less clear cut

@Bonsaibreaker

Bringham

You've allowed this in the guise of teaching her not to walk away, you've exposed her to this for years by your own admission. Its okay to not engage with someone who is being actively hurtful to her

Of course I exposed her to this. I am black their father is white do you think racisim is new to them?
What I hope I am teaching her is not to walk away. I hope I am teaching her to fight for the opinions she holds and not back down to peer pressure or social media.
Yes she loves her uncle and he's only ever been kind to her but that should not mean she cannot challenge him.

How is he being kind to her with racist views? Eh?

*Grey areas

That's fine, and they absolutely should be challenged, but I don't think it's up to your 14 year old daughter to challenge a family member on their views when she doesn't want to.

She is not doing it on her own. She does want to but the current "cancel" culture makes the youth of today lazy and complacent.

[quote Bringham]@Siameasy
The situation here those is the OP is a black woman who has been debating her openly racist elderly white male relative for years with zero effect and now expects her 14 year old daughter to continue this on(even though it appears she wants nothing to do with him)[/quote]
I think the DD should just disengage with the FM. But this idea of “cancelling” is silly. Cancelling isn’t real. Its arrogant to think that because I shun or avoid someone that that person is “cancelled”. Unless they die, said person continues as before but no longer had contact with you!

As a wider debate though I hear the term “hate speech” a lot but I find it a meaningless term. And goodness we do need to remember the difference between subjective and objective.

Sorry OP I think you sound very muddled and writing your muddled thoughts on mumsnet.
Obviously challenging your fm has not got you anywhere so why would you expect your daughter to put up with that shit?

Walking away from someone who is hurtful is not cancelling them, it is protecting yourself. She sounds pretty strong to me.

Why have you decided to teach your daughter that other people thinking she is subhuman is okay and merely a difference of opinion?

Sounds like the actions of someone who wants their child to believe they aren’t worthy.

Maybe "accepting" isn't the right word here because we shouldn't have to accept racist or homophobic views but I agree that the instinct to simply "cancel" people is troubling. How do you distinguish between a view that is genuinely abhorrent (e.g racism) and a view which may seem abhorrent to some but actually may have some value and should be discussed (e.g the idea that female-only spaces should be preserved)? If we encourage the next generation to view "cancelling" as a reasonable reaction to anything they don't like they're not going to make any distinction between those two things.

Could you give an example of the type of thing he is saying? My older two children have mixed ancestry and honestly I wouldn’t try to teach them a lesson by forcing them to tolerate openly racist views and expect them to ‘respectfully challenge’ the racist person.

I mean it’s not how things actually are. If I was subject to racist behaviour at my workplace I would immediately escalate it to the highest authority and expect a response from my seniors at work. I wouldn’t engage in polite debate about this person’s racist views and try to nicely validate my right to exist.

How is he being kind to her with racist views? Eh?

I get its hard to understand. It is for me.
He is generous with his time. Teaching things like knots, build a fire how take make a 3 course meal from a tin of tuna!
He never forgets their birthday.

Yet the comments he makes about immigration, brevity but he just does not see how that relates to me or my family or how I am affected.

@Blofeld

Although I can see where you’re coming from, being racist and homophobic AND specifically discriminating against people with protected characteristics is against the law - equality act 2010. So there’s not really a debate to be had and society has deemed these views unacceptable.

However there are many very areas of course which does make it less clear cut

The EA doesn’t apply to members of the public just going about their business and certainly not family members

Whether something is racist or homophobic can be subjective. You may indeed face rejection or disapproval if you stand on a street corner saying eg “homosexuality is a sin” but the right, operating within the law of course, to say controversial things must be protected.

@user1745

Maybe "accepting" isn't the right word here because we shouldn't have to accept racist or homophobic views but I agree that the instinct to simply "cancel" people is troubling. How do you distinguish between a view that is genuinely abhorrent (e.g racism) and a view which may seem abhorrent to some but actually may have some value and should be discussed (e.g the idea that female-only spaces should be preserved)? If we encourage the next generation to view "cancelling" as a reasonable reaction to anything they don't like they're not going to make any distinction between those two things.

Exactly. We are raising a generation of people who think that if someone doesn't think the same as them, they should just shut them down, and insult them.

And there’s a difference between cancelling and refusing to tolerate. Yes this person has the right to their abhorrent views, but they don’t have the right to force you to listen to it. You can turn away. I wouldn’t continue to see and spend time with someone who had racist or homophobic views.

@Heiferr

This thread proves exactly why we still have such an issue with racism. So many people categorising racism as a "difference of opinion". If that is what is being perpetuated in homes, I worry more about that than I ever would about cancel culture.

The problem is, a 'difference of opinion' is often classed as racist or bigoted by the 'cancel brigade.' But a difference of opinion is not always 'racist' or 'bigoted' .. Can you seriously not see that?

EG, someone saying they are genuinely concerned about the amount of illegal immigrants coming across to the UK, is a perfectly valid concern, and they have the right to HAVE that concern, and to express it. Yet some people - far-left/cancel brigade - instantly try and shut people down with these views, and shout RACIST, BIGOT, GAMMON....... Just as they do towards anyone who DARES to admit they voted for Brexit. Every single person who voted cannot be bigoted, racist, and thick. So these derogatory views aimed at Brexit voters are just laughable really.

When these things I mentioned are purely differences of opinion, (and they are labelled racist and bigoted gammon by the cancel brigade,) I worry about that - because it shows how intolerant and bigoted they are. People should be allowed to voice views that are different to the far-left/woke, without being shut down, and called bigoted gammon.

The far left controls the media
The far left controls the radio
The far left controls the newspapers
The far left controls the tv
The far left controls theatre
The far left controls social media

They do not control the ballot boxes.

As has been proven by the Conservatives continually winning, and the Brexit vote winning.

The far left shout the loudest, and stamp their feet, and scream bigot at people who don't think like them, but they are outnumbered, as the poll results keep proving. The non far-left are just sitting quietly, and not shouting at people who don't think like them, and the far-left are pretty much making fools of themselves, and are changing nothing. No-one is going to change their mind - or their views, by being lectured by the cancel culture brigade.