AIBU to think this uniform policy is wrong

[rosesinmygarden]

My daughter does an extra curricular activity which is linked to scouting/guiding.

The activity involves performing, for which she has to wear a specific uniform.

The uniform specifies exact items which are all boys'/men's clothes. Think men's dress trousers and a men's shirt.

There is no alternative uniform for female members.

The uniform is uncomfortable and fits my daughter badly no matter what size we buy. I've asked several times if she can wear women's versions of each item and have been told that if she does, she will be excluded from performances. They insist the uniform is unisex. It is not. The items are sold by the uniform company as boys/mens items.

AIBU to think this is quite wrong and that the male members would never be expected to wear women's clothes? Let alone be excluded if they refused!

My daughter wants to do the activity and I really don't want to be 'that' parent, but it makes me quite uncomfortable and I'm shocked that the people in charge of the activity think it is acceptable. There is a man in charge overall but his wife is also heavily involved in the running.

Right, well there's your starting point when you approach the county leadership, that the guidance states "shirts" all the way through with no mention of blouses for the girls who are a different shape from the boys meaning the cut of the shirts doesn't fit them. Now it may be that the county come back with they intend "shirts" to be interpreted as "shirts or blouses" and they may respond as such.

How many are in the band and how many of them are girls?

Thing is, he's got it all wrong in terms of "look". Its important that everyone matches but that doesn't mean wearing exactly the same thing- women looking uncomfortable in mens clothes doesn't look smart at all! My first thought is that the armed forces have lots of marching bands and you don't see the women looking dreadful in mens clothes- they have their own! If they can perform for the actual QUEEN in separate mens/womens uniform and look great then surely a local marching band can do the same 😬

I hate the concept of "unisex" uniform. My work uniform claims to be unisex. It isnt- its mens clothes and women have to just approximate a size. The shoulders of my shirts are halfway down my upper arm and I have to roll up the sleeve so its not below my elbow, all so I can get the shirt to do up over my boobs. Apparently whoever decided that we shouldn't have a female uniform didn't realise you can be 5'4" with size 38HH boobs. I don't look smart, I look scruffy which is how I imagine the girls in the band look!

They argue it means shirt. Unfortunately. I have already had this conversation with them. Sigh...

What you've had that conversation with the county-level leadership already? Because that was what I was suggesting.

Life's too short to put up with this kind of crap and I wouldn't be making my teenage daughter wear clothes that so obviously don't fit, especially not if I've had to pay for them! Just buy the girls' version instead and ignore.

@rosesinmygarden yes but the idea of going to county would be an arbitration, if you can't agree then county can. Message me if you like with what county it is because if it's the one I'm in I sort of know the cc and I know she would be very interested in this.

Yes, you are right though - it would be a minefield!

It would make sense for it to say shirt/blouse though and Scouting UK has chosen not to do that. They have chosen the default 'male' word for the garment instead. They have also chosen to make allowances for younger members of bands, but not for different genders. That seems wrong to me and has allowed these leaders to make this uniform policy as it is.

There are around 50 members of the band and the males/female split is around 50/50. The girls range in age from 7/8 to 18 and some of the teenage girls have not returned after COVID, so this problem is probably not apparent to those with younger girls as members, or those whose teenage daughters are very slim and/or not yet developed.

@bestbefore thanks, I have messaged you.

@WeAreTheHeroes no I haven't spoken to anyone other than band leaders and other parents so far.

Well if they want to recruit new members and encourage inclusivity then perhaps they need to drop their unintentionally sexist approach to band uniform?

Unfortunately, I think the guidance can be interpreted to support our leaders

I wouldn't have read it that way - the official shirt for girls is being denied them

12inches too wide at waist and also too tight to sit in without unzipping sounds a nightmare for trousers. I'm very surprised they haven't made a change in the basis that the first all look like a badly wrapped sack

@trollopolis, the trousers are a very slim men's fit. So, for women, they often need to be bought huge around the waist in order to fit around the hips and thighs. Because of the expense (£38 a pair and lack of sizes in 2nd hand) many of the girls end up putting up with too tight trousers which would split (in an embarrassing place) if they don't unzip before sitting on the coach to an event or bending down to pack or unpack their instrument. They have even taken to standing in front of each other for modesty.

The trouble is, guidance can be interpreted in many ways. It doesn't say the word blouse in black and white. Traditionally, a shirt is a men's clothing item and a blouse is the women's version.

The stupid thing is that they also have an 'informal' uniform of polo shirts and fleeces which are genuinely unisex. These look really nice and smart. They are comfortable for all and everyone looks the same.

It's the formal uniform which is a joke.

I think my issue with this man is that he would never in a month of Sundays expect himself or any of the boys to wear women's clothes. Ever. Because that would be very very wrong.

It seems like you are looking for commiseration rather than a solution, but as a solution, buy the uniform too big so that it fits her chest and hips and take it to a good tailor. It will be expensive but it can be made to fit perfectly. I did this with a suit for a male friend's wedding when I was standing up with the men as a groomsman and it it looked great (I wore it with a silk vest top underneath in the same colour as the ties the other men wore).

@rosesinmygarden

The wife, who is the 2nd in command, is a very slim lady. They have no children.

I think they are so wrapped up in the 'success' of the group that they will be unwilling to change things. Most of the girls and their parents are the type not to want to rock the boat so to speak. I think if i complain, it will become difficult for my daughter to continue attending. The leader is a bit of a bully when he wants to be.

I'm very tempted to get the uniform tailored to fit and then just deny it.

I've just checked and the latest trousers are actually 42 inch waist!!!! my daughter is a ladies size 10/12 so you can imagine the extra fabric around the waist! They are also £38!

It's a shame that not all the parents of the girls would be willing to make a stand. My advice would have been for all the girls to buy the correct uniform for their shape and see what happens. If this man chucks them out I would then create a stink and contact anyone with an interest - the organisation itself, social media, the press and see what happens.

This should not be happening now.

@rosesinmygarden

Yes, you are right though - it would be a minefield!

It would make sense for it to say shirt/blouse though and Scouting UK has chosen not to do that. They have chosen the default 'male' word for the garment instead. They have also chosen to make allowances for younger members of bands, but not for different genders. That seems wrong to me and has allowed these leaders to make this uniform policy as it is.

There are around 50 members of the band and the males/female split is around 50/50. The girls range in age from 7/8 to 18 and some of the teenage girls have not returned after COVID, so this problem is probably not apparent to those with younger girls as members, or those whose teenage daughters are very slim and/or not yet developed.

Standard everyday sexism male default

Have you actually spoken to the leaders and discussed how uncomfortable and ill fitting the uniform is for teen girls @rosesinmygarden ?

That's the fist step. It wouldn't surprise me if the leaders are simply oblivious to issues like this as makes they've never faced them

A blouse is a shirt, maybe the bloke needs introducing to a dictionary.

It seems like you are looking for commiseration rather than a solution, but as a solution, buy the uniform too big so that it fits her chest and hips and take it to a good tailor. It will be expensive but it can be made to fit perfectly

Why should the solution be for girls to have to pay out more than their uniform than the boys? There is an alternative uniform available to the girls at the same price as the boys, but the leader is choosing not to allow them to wear it. OP, I'd definitely take this higher, if you have explained your concerns to the leader and he has refused to change the policy.

@WaltzingBetty. Yes I have made them aware of how uncomfortable the girls feel. So have other parents. The leaders are not all male but the female leaders it appears either don't mind the uniform or are not in a position to challenge the policy. I've mentioned this several times in the thread but I appreciate it is now quite long and would take a while to check this.

I have directly asked which girls items I should buy so that my daughter can be comfortable but smart and have been told that the items on the list (which are men's/boys' items) are the only ones acceptable for performances.

I do think the main leader is oblivious and too important to be bothered by trivial things like girls feeling comfortable at a performance. It simply doesn't feature on his radar.

I would have pulled my daughter out a while ago, but she really does get so much out of doing the activity and has worked so hard to get to the point where she is good enough to be allowed to perform. It took approx. 18 months of practices to be allowed to even attend church parade with the band and she has now been invited to perform at some really prestigious events. She would hate to leave her friends and to give up an activity which she enjoys and is such a great outlet.

My dilemma is that I feel the uniform policy and the leaders' attitudes towards it are very wrong but to make a fuss means drawing attention to my daughter in a negative way. To not make a fuss, teaches her that when men are in charge you can't complain about issues that make you unhappy.

I guess really the answer is to put up and shut up unless my daughter wants to make a stand.

Sounds like the safeguarding route might be the way to go then - remind this man that he is creating a situation that means the girls have to undo their trousers to sit down, and that that could look very dodgy if anyone further up took note of what he was doing - make it like you are giving him a friendly heads up that he is putting himself at risk. You shouldn't have to threaten like this, but it might be the only way.

And in the meantime, paying the extra to get the clothes tailored seems the only way, or finding girls' items that do look otherwise identical to the boys'. Unfair for the girls to have to spend so much more money, but if she is really keen to keep on with the band, you might have to.

It's a shame the girls can't all get together and refuse to wear the boys' uniforms, as the sudden loss of half the band at a performance might be enough to make him give in. Or if there is any time where she is really vital to her section/doing a solo/the only one who can come on a certain day etc, then that might be the day that he decides girls in girls' clothes can in fact perform after all.

You are coming up with a lot of obstacles.

Your DD cannot wear the mens trousers. They are uncomfortable and don't fit. Just say no. No she is not wearing mens trousers because they are uncomfortable, they split all the time. all the girls need to say no. Stop asking and refuse. Is he going to exclude his entire marching band?

He's not a well meaning parent. He's being at best a dickhead, at worse there is genuine safety concern in a man who insists teenage girls wear a uniform that regularly splits. You say he's a bully. Why are you you even letting your teenage dd attend this event

If you really don't want to make a stand then get them altered. He cannot tell you you cannot alter an item to get it to fit. Why are you even asking? Would you ask if the trousers were too long and needed taking up? Whats he going to say, your trousers look suspiciously like they fit you today?

He's not going to change based on you asking him. So you either need to make a proper stand and put your foot down or take it higher. This is a children's activity where the leader regularly threatens children with exclusion if they wear correctly fitting clothes that are not at risk of splitting and behaves like a bully. That's not acceptable. There will be a higher power, contact them.

When you say the main leader is too important, it's a local scouts marching band. He's not too important. He needs to get over himself, honestly the more I read the more I think this complete dickhead needs challenging

So fuck if he is annoyed!!!! Make a fucking fuss. Tell him it’s creepy and pervy to expect girls to wear the boys outfits when they clearly can’t fit into them. Report to the district commissioner. Stop being a fucking coward and stick up for your daughter. I’ve got the absolute rage reading this

I have emailed the district commissioner. I have asked them to keep it anonymous and not share my name or the age of my daughter.

I spoke to my daughter again this morning and she is refusing to attend a particular event as it is one where they have to wear an 'ultra formal' uniform supplied by the band. Her words were 'They won't have anything to fit me and I will look fat and have to stand up all day'. The more I thought about her words the angrier I got. So I have emailed to ask what the policy is and how best to work with the leader on this.

We shall see if the DC is a dickhead too!

If the trousers are from a school uniform supplier - do they not have those elastic with buttons on the waist band so the waist can be adjusted?

Good. I’d still speak to him in person and tell him exactly what I think.
But, hopefully going through the DC will fix it