AIBU to think this uniform policy is wrong

[rosesinmygarden]

My daughter does an extra curricular activity which is linked to scouting/guiding.

The activity involves performing, for which she has to wear a specific uniform.

The uniform specifies exact items which are all boys'/men's clothes. Think men's dress trousers and a men's shirt.

There is no alternative uniform for female members.

The uniform is uncomfortable and fits my daughter badly no matter what size we buy. I've asked several times if she can wear women's versions of each item and have been told that if she does, she will be excluded from performances. They insist the uniform is unisex. It is not. The items are sold by the uniform company as boys/mens items.

AIBU to think this is quite wrong and that the male members would never be expected to wear women's clothes? Let alone be excluded if they refused!

My daughter wants to do the activity and I really don't want to be 'that' parent, but it makes me quite uncomfortable and I'm shocked that the people in charge of the activity think it is acceptable. There is a man in charge overall but his wife is also heavily involved in the running.

They would NEVER insist that the boys buy and wear the girls' version of the items

Though that is exactly what I would like to suggest - the sexes take it in turns to have uniform that fits, rather than it always being one which is not comfortable

I'm assuming it's a Scout/Guide marching band? In which case it will be Scout affiliated so you should raise your concern with the District, or even Regional Commissioner.

That's dreadful. And against the Equality Act. He is discriminating against girls by insisting they wear clothing that is ill fitting. The boys are allowed to wear clothes that fit them.

how competitive is it to get into the activity? Is she easily replaced?

I'm wondering what would happen if you call their bluff - buy her the girls' items, and see if a) they notice, and b) actually refuse to let her perform, as presumably that has repercussions for the group

How obvious would it be really if they boys' items were tailored to fit? I can't see how it would look much less uniform, just to have a few darts here and there - no less uniform that the mix of heights and body shapes anyway!

@Clymene

That's dreadful. And against the Equality Act. He is discriminating against girls by insisting they wear clothing that is ill fitting. The boys are allowed to wear clothes that fit them.

Just what I wanted to say

You could also give them a copy of invisible women by criado Perez

[quote girlmom21]@ErrolTheDragon it does fit [/quote]
Huh? The whole point of this thread is that it doesn't.
Maybe you're fairly tall and slim hipped so men's or 'unisex' stuff fits you, but it absolutely doesn't fit many women and girls.

OP, how would they know if she wears the 'girls' form of the shirt? Especially if it is tucked into trousers?
Our sea scouts don't wear the shirts at all. They wear their own groups Polo shirts under the jumpers which is why I was confused. The trousers have all been hand me downs. My DD is only 12 so I may have more of an issue with this in the next couple of years. There are more girls than boys in our group.

If it is an off branch of scouts, it is still 'scouts'. So I would write to their county 'leader'. There is one as far as I know in each area.

@user1471530109

OP, how would they know if she wears the 'girls' form of the shirt? Especially if it is tucked into trousers? Our sea scouts don't wear the shirts at all. They wear their own groups Polo shirts under the jumpers which is why I was confused. The trousers have all been hand me downs. My DD is only 12 so I may have more of an issue with this in the next couple of years. There are more girls than boys in our group.

If it is an off branch of scouts, it is still 'scouts'. So I would write to their county 'leader'. There is one as far as I know in each area.

The blouse buttons up differently and has a different collar and cuffs. Not very different from a distance but obvious in a uniform check.

The trousers are my biggest bug bear. Many of the girls cannot sit or bend down while wearing them without undoing the button and zip.

@ErrolTheDragon it does fit.
She admits in the OP it fits. It's just not flattering.

Nearly all "joint" activities are managed by scouts rather than guides.

The scouts "rules" about uniform are here: www.scouts.org.uk/por/10-uniform-badges-and-emblems/#10.8

I would phrase an email using the information from cultural requirements and safety considerations as her emotional well-being is just as important as whether they are getting soaked at a remembrance parade or whatever.

If it's band (I'm guessing spitfires?) They are usually managed at a county level, they should have told you who to contact but if not you should be able to contact the county commissioner by googling them or asking who is the leaders line manager. (hampshirescouts.org.uk/contact-us/ -if it is spitfires). If no luck at a county level contact HQ www.scouts.org.uk/contact-us

*The blouse buttons up differently and has a different collar and cuffs. Not very different from a distance but obvious in a uniform check.

The trousers are my biggest bug bear. Many of the girls cannot sit or bend down while wearing them without undoing the button and zip*

Definitely take it higher - I can't believe the leaders think this is ok in this day and age.

Oh, definitely include this bit. It is absolutely a safeguarding concern that girls are required to undo their trousers to take part in the activity!

(And absolutely ridiculous when a suitable, official, uniform is available)

It's a Gang Show isn't it?

Can you get the uniform tailored for your daughter by a local seamstress?

[quote girlmom21]@ErrolTheDragon it does fit.
She admits in the OP it fits. It's just not flattering. [/quote]
The uniform is uncomfortable and fits my daughter badly no matter what size we buy

'Fits badly' .... it does not fit properly,

She's later shown the shirts, there's no 'unisex' option, there's (sensibly) a different cut for each sex but she's not allowed to get the correct one.

How would they know if you'd had alterations done?

TBF scouting/guiding uniforms are all pretty badly fitting so I'd get the kit and have it altered for fit. I don't think this can be challenged assuming no change to colour, correct length etc.
However if the uniform is really terrible I think worth a look at wider policy of uniform to see if there's anything about m/f uniform - then a chat with the leader. If nothing specific you'll probably need to go higher-up than the leader.

I honestly know nothing about Thai sort of thing but it sounds AWFUL. I wouldn't be letting my daughter participate with such a egotistical male in charge. Is it possibly something where the girls could all band together and rebel against- and it would be very obvious if ALL the girls weren't allowed to perform?

Just seen your comment re the buttons opening. Yes, get this sorted with leader. I'd be inclined to just tell him this is what is going to happen TBH. Daft when a female version is available not to!

In that case, I think it's ridiculous that the uniform looks about the same but girls are expected to not wear theirs. Having to undo buttons and zips to bend or sit goes beyond wanting them for aesthetic reason and should be seriously taken into account.

[quote girlmom21]@ErrolTheDragon it does fit.
She admits in the OP it fits. It's just not flattering. [/quote]
Depends how you define "fits". I could wear my brothers jeans with a belt to hold them up. But they'd be tight on my hips, wide on my waist and too long. Because my body is a different shape to his. I wouldn't say that counts as "fits" although I could technique wear it.

I thought Gang Show, but we didn't have uniform in my day! We wore our guide/scout uniform.

As someone who has been a Guide leader for many years, I’d love to know what activity this is. I’m not aware of any activity “linked” to Guiding and Scouting (other than the joint orchestra and concert band). Can you tell us what it is?

If your daughter is a scout first go above the leaders head to district/county commissioner as appropriate.

Same advice if she’s ‘from’ the guiding side.

Take it higher it’ll get changed.

scoutstorehelp.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015725274-Made-to-Measure-Bespoke-Uniform

In fact, scouts also do a made-to-measure service. You could order a bespoke "official" one...

I think if all communication has fallen on deaf ears you can only resort to reporting to the equality commission and whoever checks them for child safeguarding, because the girls have gaping shirts showing their bras or underwear and they have to undo their trousers to sit down

Dear scout Leader,

With immediate effect DD will be wearing female fit uniform for practice sessions. This is for practical reasons ie problems with the male fit uniform. As there is no difference in overall appearance this is probably a non-issue but there seems to be some confusion that girls aren't allowed to wear it.

Best wishes
Awesome mum

@rachrose8

As someone who has been a Guide leader for many years, I’d love to know what activity this is. I’m not aware of any activity “linked” to Guiding and Scouting (other than the joint orchestra and concert band). Can you tell us what it is?

Well it probably is the band then.