AIBU to think this uniform policy is wrong

[rosesinmygarden]

My daughter does an extra curricular activity which is linked to scouting/guiding.

The activity involves performing, for which she has to wear a specific uniform.

The uniform specifies exact items which are all boys'/men's clothes. Think men's dress trousers and a men's shirt.

There is no alternative uniform for female members.

The uniform is uncomfortable and fits my daughter badly no matter what size we buy. I've asked several times if she can wear women's versions of each item and have been told that if she does, she will be excluded from performances. They insist the uniform is unisex. It is not. The items are sold by the uniform company as boys/mens items.

AIBU to think this is quite wrong and that the male members would never be expected to wear women's clothes? Let alone be excluded if they refused!

My daughter wants to do the activity and I really don't want to be 'that' parent, but it makes me quite uncomfortable and I'm shocked that the people in charge of the activity think it is acceptable. There is a man in charge overall but his wife is also heavily involved in the running.

She is 16 and a curvy size 10/12.

I wear men's trousers but shirts are much less good , too wide on shoulders and bags of material around the tummy or stretched across the bust

Perhaps he's likes things tight on young girls bust

Tbh the more I read the more I think that in your shoes I’d be advising my daughter to find a new activity.
It sounds messed up, beyond the uniform. No skill is so unique or special that this is the only way to do it or worth the issues. He sounds like someone generally to run down esteem over time. It’ll only teach your daughter to submit, accept poor treatment, be less and put up and shut up. It’s not a healthy environment to be subjected to a man with an empire who treats teens like this. Where you are afraid to speak up. Being afraid to speak up out of fear is never ever right or healthy for teens.
The uniform sounds like one symptom but f a broader environment not suitable for teen girls. Woman up and complain, be prepared to accept this May mean leaving. See it as a lesson when to stand up for herself.

Personally, I'd leave the group if I were in your shoes and there's nothing more I could do to change things. But if staying, I wouldn't want to ruin it for my daughter. People like this are vindictive and you have to be ready to finish what you started with them or not start at all.

Your county should be able to deal with this discreetly, if you've previously asked about uniform then the leader might work out that it's you but they should not be allowed to do anything about it.

Probably worth having a quick look at the leaders' code of practice too: www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/staying-safe-and-safeguarding/safe-scouting-cards/young-people-first-yellow-card/
Just because they're volunteers doesn't mean that they can do what they like.

@bestbefore

Because the county commissioner needs to know these things - I think it's also a safeguarding issue if not bullying. I'm sure you can do it anon. Or just sound them out in the first instance.

This - if the DC / CC isn't completely useless, the organiser won't know who the complaint has come from, so your DD won't be affected. It's pretty outrageous and I think Scouting would take a dim view of the current situation.

I’d actually raise it as a straightforward safeguarding concern - older man in position of responsibility wants all the girls dressed in such a way they have to undo their trousers to sit down. Come on, no Scout/Guide umbrella organisation is going to stand for that. He sounds unpleasant and to be honest not necessarily someone I’d want my daughter having much to do with.

This is exactly why I've not kicked up a fuss yet.

OP, I don't think you need to kick up a fuss directly.

I also agree with pp who're saying to raise it with the county commissioner as a safeguarding issue and you can do so anonymously.

Surely they look worse, all rumply and baggy, than they would wearing properly fitting clothes? They can't possibly all look "the same" - the boys look tidy and the girls looks scruffy!

@bestbefore

Because the county commissioner needs to know these things - I think it's also a safeguarding issue if not bullying. I'm sure you can do it anon. Or just sound them out in the first instance.

I do agree that it needs to be raised so that it can be dealt with through the right channels, although I appreciate the reasons for your hesitation. I also agree re safeguarding.

There are policies that are intended to protect young members from what you describe here.

Is it the National Guide & scout symphony orchestra? They just wear their own section shirt or blouse with black skirt or trousers don't they? With a necker.

Just because they're volunteers doesn't mean that they can do what they like.

Absolutely this.

Buy oversized and get the uniform tailored to fit.

I'd be going mental. I'd have county involved. I'd be screaming about equality. I really wouldn't care what the leaders thought at this point.
They don't have kids. Its not an issue the wife faces clearly.
But it's hideous discrimination & humiliating for the girls whose bodies are a different shape. There are separate versions for a reason

I'd also use it to teach my daughter to challenge these things. Question them. Fight for her right to wear the uniform designed & available for teenage girls.

@fallfallfall

Buy oversized and get the uniform tailored to fit.

Why should they pay £20-30 on top when a female version is available??

I wouldn’t be leaving my child attend an activity run by someone who can be “bit of a bully” tbh.

Why have none of the parents reported him for ensuring the teenage girls in his care have to unzip their trousers to bend over or sit? Surely none of you really think this is innocent? It has nothing to do with looking the same and everything to do with being either a bully or sexual predator

Maybe if ALL the girls refused the shirts, and ALL turn up in similar female shirts/blouses, then this man couldn't really do anything about it!!
He needs to realise he's now in the 21st century and that young women are wearing comfortable clothing!

It's a Scout and Guide marching band. Obviously not one where they wear their own section tops and black skirt or trousers @Reachersloveinterest as if it was, there wouldn't be an issue.

All the girls hate the uniform but despite many polite requests, the leaders refuse to allow them to wear women's items and state that anyone not in full uniform will not be allowed to perform. I have seen them send kids home from performances for having the wrong colour socks so I can fully believe they mean this.

For those of you airily suggesting I pay for adjustments, I don't see why I should have to pay £62 for uniform and then pay even more for someone to alter it. We are currently on our 4th pair of trousers as my daughter has changed shape and size considerably since going through puberty. They are 12 inches too big around the waist. 12 inches! That is not a simple few stitches...

For the finance reasons, of course the girls aren't all going to go out and buy even more uniform which they aren't allowed to wear in order to protest. We are not made of money and this would be a completely pointless exercise.

The uniform is only worn for performances. The kids wear their own clothes for practices.

I think I will have to speak to my daughter and decide with her whether she wants me to speak to county.

I don't for one minute think the man in charge has any sexual motivations for the uniform policy. He apparently got a well meaning parent helper to pick all the items and put the uniform policy together (the trousers for example are not from scouting UK, they are from a school uniform supplier). This parent had only boys and I think simply didn't consider the girls in the band. They are now refusing to change the uniform because everyone needs to look the same. There are girls trousers available which are very similar but not the same. I personally don't think this would affect the look of the group, but the leaders disagree, or can't be bothered to discuss it as they are too busy with more important things.

Thanks for the update, I've been thinking about this a bit overnight. And I'm so cross for you.
There's guidance on uniform here

www.scouts.org.uk/por/10-uniform-badges-and-emblems/#10.18

10.18. Marching bands sv

Thank you @bestbefore

Unfortunately, I think the guidance can be interpreted to support our leaders.

e.g.
^10.18. Marching bands sv
Uniform:

Members of Scout Marching Bands have two options from which the Band as a whole may choose:
youth members may wear the official uniform shirt for their Section or the approved sweatshirt (for Cub Scouts and Beaver Scouts only). Adults wear the adult official uniform shirt;

or

all members, including adults, wear the official uniform shirt i.e. the Scout, Explorer Scout or the adult official uniform shirt.^

It doesn't mention blouses, only shirts. And it talks about the band as a whole wearing the same thing.

I must admit, I am surprised there is not guidance on uniform for different genders.

OK so the official uniform, if they all wear the same top, has a blouse for women and a shirt for men - I'd argue shirt is a generic term meaning both.

shop.scouts.org.uk/uniforms/network

@rosesinmygarden

I must admit, I am surprised there is not guidance on uniform for different genders.

Minefield!!