Prof Stock & disgraceful, disrespectful, disingenuous and disillusioned students!!

[CityMumma78]

I’m so angry that a handful of students and fanatical activists are deliberately silencing an academic over her very justified views on biology. Professor Stock, by her title alone, is an incredibly well read academic who has studied and researched her topic but because this doesn’t align with a small majority she could lose her job and has been advised to seek protection and put up CCTV. WTF

What she has written-
Womanhood and manhood reflect biological sex, not gender or gender identity;
The claim 'transwomen are women' is a fiction, not literally true
Sexual orientation (being gay, being lesbian) is determined by same-sex attraction, not attraction to gender identity
Spaces where women undress and sleep should remain genuinely single-sex, in order to protect them;
Children with gender identity disorders should not be given puberty blockers as minors.

I personally agree with all these points! You CANNOT change chromosomes, you CANNOT change your sex organs and reproductive systems, it doesn’t matter what you identify as.
Why is she being silenced and threatened and why isn’t more being done by the university’s, police and government???

I spent my whole childhood watching my mum being beaten up and tortured by my dad and I passionately believe in safe spaces for women… toilets, changing facilities, refuges etc. Recently on MN for example a lady commented on finding a man using the Ladies toilets with the door open when the Gents toilets were operational, this behaviour is indefensible, he knew what he was doing and got a kick out of it! What is happening in this country that a woman can’t feel safe to use a public toilet!

I feel scared for women and I am hugely concerned about people being silenced in favour of this indoctrination!

Do others feel as strongly as I do??

YABU - the students are right
YANBU - Professor Stock is right

Read it and weep:

www.ucu.org.uk/article/11407/UCU-response-to-government-free-speech-proposals

I've been seriously considering revoking my membership for some time. In the wake of the situation with Kathleen Stock, the decision has effectively been made for me.

And not putting up with it involves what, exactly? Banning protest one assumes.
So you only support free speech that you agree with. Just like OP and all the shouty transphobes with their scaremongering bs on this thread.

I’d suggest using their supposed intelligence for a start and actually articulate specific instances of where an academic has caused harm. And by harm, I don’t mean this current ‘go to’ of feeling ‘unsafe’ if someone’s viewpoint is challenged and they are required to support it.

You know, putting up speakers for TV that don’t require the show to point out that what that guest said was actually completely untrue and easily proven to be untrue, despite how fervently that fact is believed to be true.

These would be good starts too.

And not putting up with it involves what, exactly? Banning protest one assumes.

Implementing disciplinary procedures against bullying, intimidation and relentless harassment of one staff member, in line presumably with the university's institutional policies, not to mention the law. That's what it means.

So you only support free speech that you agree with. Just like OP and all the shouty transphobes with their scaremongering bs on this thread.

Bloody hell. You've no idea.....

Er, does Prof Stock not also have the right to free speech? University used to be where you went to learn to debate robustly, think critically and be exposed to different points of view. Fact of life-not everyone will agree with you.
Wearing a mask to protest is cowardly. If you believe in something own it.

I don't understand this 'feeling unsafe' nonsense. These people seem to have no concept of what unsafe actually means.

I've kept my GC views largely to myself but I work in early years and if anyone tells me a 3 year old has a 'gender identity' issue I won't be able to hold it in. We should be opposing gender stereotyping not reinforcing it.

Good for you, Kate. Am I right in thinking that this would have been an automatic safeguarding issue until recently?

Banning protest one assumes.

Of course not.

If you disagree with someone on these issues, you debate with them in a respectful way. Explain your position. Counter their arguments.

What is repulsive is the bullying tactics, the intimidation, the 'silencing', the refusal to engage. It smacks of insecurity in your position and an inability to apply academic rigour and defend yourself.

If someone could explain why Prof Stock is wrong to state a biological fact like 'it's impossible to change sex' that would be a great start to a more fruitful exchange.

What is repulsive is the bullying tactics, the intimidation, the 'silencing', the refusal to engage. It smacks of insecurity in your position and an inability to apply academic rigour and defend yourself.

Agreed.

The aggressive activists are appealing to the free speech arguments currently permeating universities, and framing their actions under this banner.

What these actually amount to is targeted bullying and intimidation.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Read it and weep:

www.ucu.org.uk/article/11407/UCU-response-to-government-free-speech-proposals

I've been seriously considering revoking my membership for some time. In the wake of the situation with Kathleen Stock, the decision has effectively been made for me.

As a very small silver lining to the big shitty cloud that is UCU, it’s now transparently clear that the threats to academic freedom are not “phantom” nor is it the case that they don’t come from students.

@Waitwhat23

Quite a few posters have stated as fact 'Professor Stock is transphobic'. Every one I've seen has been asked to share any quotes from the book which are transphobic, just one will do. Not one has offered any evidence so far.

It's the same with accusations of transphobia against J.K Rowling.

You ask for an example. Just one; a phrase, a sentence of anything she has said or written that could be deemed transphobic.

And there won't be a reply, ever. Just tumbleweed. Or if on social media, you'll be blocked.

You know the answer. Writing or speaking about women and children's rights, writing or speaking or even practising safeguarding protocols...is transphobic. That's one of the TRA's/incels dirty little secrets; they deem such issues as being inherently transphobic, but they rarely actually come out and equate them with transphobia publictly.

Which is why they can never provide a single example of JKR, or Prof. Kathleen Stock or indeed any single one of the numerous brandings of transphobia against women (rarely men) who dare speak out. Which is why there isn't a single web site listing 'transphobic' words that such allegedly transphobic people have written-or-spoken.

Not one, ever.

Good new piece by Bari Weiss.

We Got Here Because of Cowardice. We Get Out With Courage

Allan Bloom had the radicals of the 1960s in mind when he wrote that “a few students discovered that pompous teachers who catechized them about academic freedom could, with a little shove, be made into dancing bears.” Now, a half-century later, those dancing bears hold named chairs at every important elite, sense-making institution in the country.

As Douglas Murray has put it: “The problem is not that the sacrificial victim is selected. The problem is that the people who destroy his reputation are permitted to do so by the complicity, silence and slinking away of everybody else.”

Each surely thought: These protestors have some merit! This institution, this university, this school, hasn’t lived up to all of its principles at all times! We have been racist! We have been sexist! We haven’t always been enlightened! I’ll give a bit and we’ll find a way to compromise. This turned out to be as naive as Robespierre thinking that he could avoid the guillotine.

Think about each of the anecdotes I’ve shared here and all the rest you already know. All that had to change for the entire story to turn out differently was for the person in charge, the person tasked with being a steward for the newspaper or the magazine or the college or the school district or the private high school or the kindergarten, to say: No.

@secular111 and when the people who say 'JKR is a transphobe!' are asked whether they've actually read her essay, which addressed these issues, the answer is almost always 'no! But she is! (random non entity on Ticktok) says so!'

It would almost be amusing if for the fact that this false narrative has become so imbedded.

[quote Waitwhat23]**@secular111* and when the people who say 'JKR is a transphobe!' are asked whether they've actually read her essay, which addressed these issues, the answer is almost always 'no! But she is! (random non entity on Ticktok*) says so!'

It would almost be amusing if for the fact that this false narrative has become so imbedded.[/quote]
You expect these people to read?

Part of the problem is that these 'debates' are often played out on Twitter which is probably the worst media in the world to conduct reasoned and nuanced discussion.

@TheKeatingFive

Part of the problem is that these 'debates' are often played out on Twitter which is probably the worst media in the world to conduct reasoned and nuanced discussion.

You can’t have a nuanced discussion in 280 characters. Social media can be a brilliant thing but it’s driven a coach and horses through the concept of “debate” because everything just gets reduced to the flinging of sound bites, like a game of Snap.

Add in the shift towards “social tribes” where a) people increasingly live in bubbles/echo chambers where they expect only to hear similar views and feel threatened when they hear something different (cf “I don’t feel safe” and other nonsense) and b) those who offer dissenting views get ostracised so there’s a value in virtue signalling to ensure your continued membership of the tribe, and you have so much toxicity you could stir it with a spoon.

Something has gone wrong with universities. When I was a student I expected to be challenged and uncomfortable, not to shout down academics who are both professional and experts in their fields.

Also, university is where I first learnt about feminism and women's sex-based oppression - a concept that has been thoroughly backed up by my real life experience. Crazy that they're no longer allowed to discuss this.

I'm all for gender fluidity/non-conformity, and very much against sexist stereotypes. I also understand that trans people a) exist and b) have a rough time of it. We need to discuss this and find ways to support them without pretending humans can literally change sex, or undoing the protections and rights women have.

Definitely support KS and I'm happy to see this in AIBU with the voting feature.

@mustlovegin

They shouldn't be able to dictate what they are taught on the grounds that they want to avoid any topic where they might be presented with views they disagree with

^This

Absolutely agree!

University is not about "buying a qualification".

I despair about society if these are the "brightest minds" out to shape our future...

@MildredsMussaurus

Something has gone wrong with universities. When I was a student I expected to be challenged and uncomfortable, not to shout down academics who are both professional and experts in their fields.

Also, university is where I first learnt about feminism and women's sex-based oppression - a concept that has been thoroughly backed up by my real life experience. Crazy that they're no longer allowed to discuss this.

I'm all for gender fluidity/non-conformity, and very much against sexist stereotypes. I also understand that trans people a) exist and b) have a rough time of it. We need to discuss this and find ways to support them without pretending humans can literally change sex, or undoing the protections and rights women have.

Definitely support KS and I'm happy to see this in AIBU with the voting feature.

You explain how I feel so much more eloquently than me!

In the last week I've heard of two local university branches taking issue with UCU National's stance on academic freedom.

We'll see how well the current general secretary takes that, especially given her/their awful response to the Sussex affair. If this thing gains momentum it restores faith slightly. It would restore even more faith if this ultimately led to a vote of no confidence in Grady, who who was elected partly on the back of a stated pledge to support women and their particular interests and challenges of working in HE (there are a lot). She has completely betrayed us. IMO she's incompetent and completely out of her depth in this role.

Perhaps after all the tide is turning - slowly.

University is not about "buying a qualification". I despair about society if these are the "brightest minds" out to shape our future...

Sadly I think this is the attitude of a lot of parents now too, it's not just coming from the students. Having recently been through the application process, open days, UCAS etc with dd, I reckon the majority of other parents I spoke to saw uni as a financial transaction - a way to buy access to a specific profession/higher income/wider range of jobs. I think students are just picking up on that and seeing it as about providing customer service, so it's perfectly reasonable to complain if you think you're not getting a good service, or the staff are letting their own private concerns affect the way they do their jobs. No different from leaving reviews on Tripadvisor, where there's an assumption that a good business will want to take your experience on board and do better. That model has been created over a few decades and so maybe it's suprising that there aren't more student protests about what is and isn't taught or thought by academic staff.

Sadly I think this is the attitude of a lot of parents now too, it's not just coming from the students

You only have to read the Higher Education section of MN. It's a bear pit of entitled purchasing parents ... (not all of them, but a lot!)