Prof Stock & disgraceful, disrespectful, disingenuous and disillusioned students!!

[CityMumma78]

I’m so angry that a handful of students and fanatical activists are deliberately silencing an academic over her very justified views on biology. Professor Stock, by her title alone, is an incredibly well read academic who has studied and researched her topic but because this doesn’t align with a small majority she could lose her job and has been advised to seek protection and put up CCTV. WTF

What she has written-
Womanhood and manhood reflect biological sex, not gender or gender identity;
The claim 'transwomen are women' is a fiction, not literally true
Sexual orientation (being gay, being lesbian) is determined by same-sex attraction, not attraction to gender identity
Spaces where women undress and sleep should remain genuinely single-sex, in order to protect them;
Children with gender identity disorders should not be given puberty blockers as minors.

I personally agree with all these points! You CANNOT change chromosomes, you CANNOT change your sex organs and reproductive systems, it doesn’t matter what you identify as.
Why is she being silenced and threatened and why isn’t more being done by the university’s, police and government???

I spent my whole childhood watching my mum being beaten up and tortured by my dad and I passionately believe in safe spaces for women… toilets, changing facilities, refuges etc. Recently on MN for example a lady commented on finding a man using the Ladies toilets with the door open when the Gents toilets were operational, this behaviour is indefensible, he knew what he was doing and got a kick out of it! What is happening in this country that a woman can’t feel safe to use a public toilet!

I feel scared for women and I am hugely concerned about people being silenced in favour of this indoctrination!

Do others feel as strongly as I do??

YABU - the students are right
YANBU - Professor Stock is right

Exactly Errol! This case happens to be about womens rights but in reality it’s part of something much bigger

• For those of you concerned about this: If any of you are taking DC on open days, please make a point of asking how the department and university supports open debate, and if there have been instances of academics being harassed or no platformed, ask how this was allowed to happen.

If you are an alumna of a university, please write to the vice-chancellor to voice concern about what is happening in universities. Many of them are pretending they cannot see this problem that is right under their noses.

Excellent points GCAcademic
Also could add to this that any of us could write and say we support academic freedom as a basic component of research probity because universities have a key role to play in informing public policy that affects us all in society, but often particularly the most vulnerable in society with the least ability to exercise choices and agency about not being reliant on public services. That’s relevant whether we have any direct link with unis or not or are taxpayers or not etc etc. We all want a decent and fair society for us all to live in.

Also maybe good to remind them that all this is law not just a nice to have. Their public sector equality duty (PSED) requires them to promote good relations between groups with different protected characteristics. Perhaps they could reply with their policy on this and examples of how they are actively promoting those good relations by supporting women’s and lesbian and gay people’s rights on campus including to freedom of thought and expression.

The Public Sector Equality Duty requires universities and other public authorities to eliminate discrimination, harassment and victimisation and any other conduct that is prohibited by or under the Equality Act 2010.

@ErrolTheDragon that's the side of it that has got my interest. I don't know enough about women's rights and trans rights to decide how I feel about what she said but it's angered me that students don't understand academic debate and free speech.

I usually use the tablet app but just go to the browser for votes or doing PMs or using advanced search. You would need your password to log in to vote, I would think.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4377019-Prof-Stock-disgraceful-disrespectful-disingenuous-and-disillusioned-students

@FOJN

The students wore masks to remain anonymous because:

No one wants to lose their place at university, but we don't want to sacrifice our right to defend ourselves with our words.

Apparently they don't understand irony.

It's absolutely disgraceful that an institution of higher learning would indulge this kind of bullying. She's not the first Professor to need additional security either, Selina Todd at Oxford had to have security guards to give lectures if I remember correctly. How can anyone claim they are the ones being made to feel unsafe when their behaviour leaves someone else needing to take extra security precautions.

I'm sure this thread will be sent to the naughty step PDQ. Women discussing being silenced and subjected to threats isn't allowed on MN if it's related to a certain topic.

yes, this

I had to laugh when I read this.

You don’t have to be terribly bright to go to university nowadays, and loads of people have absolutely no idea of basic biology.

Add to that the need to ‘feel safe’ - i.e. nobody disagreeing with your opinions, however daft - and you have the ludicrous scenario we have now.

High time for senior academics to man/woman up.

How are such students ever going to cope with the RL world of work and earning a living?

Transactivists urinated on law academic Professor Rosa Freedman. This is terrorism.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-46454454

When I think of the courage and sacrifice of students in places like China, Saudi, Iran for example, I just feel ashamed and embarrassed about this lot.

There are some very brave people driving minicabs/ubers, delivering takeaways here who had to abandon their universities/professional jobs to save their own lives. What they must think of these privileged young people I can only imagine.

Apologies, that should say Professor Rosa Freedman's door

Another example of intimidation

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9736211/Professor-shares-letter-Reading-student-warning-gender-critical-talks-problematic.html

Such entitled, spoilt, woman-hating little shits. I agree on the ‘where are the grown ups?’ front. Is this what academia has become? Shameful.

They have said “trans students feel intellectually threatened” by professor stock which is quite a self own really!!!

I mean, bloody hell.

You’re SUPPOSED to feel “intellectually threatened” by your professors at university.

It’s why you go - to be challenged, to develop your critical thinking, to learn how to structure an argument or see past the surface and explore a subject in depth.

I was “intellectually threatened” by every single one of my lecturers. Some were lovely people - but they were fiercely intelligent, intellectual, critical thinkers. Prof Lisa Jardine was my tutor for a year (my original tutor on sabbatical) and she was totally approachable but absolutely take-no-prisoners in terms of academic rigour.

You’re not there for people to pat you on the head and agree your feelings trump logic and material reality.

Kathleen Stock is a professor of philosophy, for crying out loud. If you can’t debate ideas and belief systems and the way they interact with social norms in fucking philosophy, why the fuck agree anyone should study it at all.

It makes me MAD AS HELL.

Academics' letter in The Times today.

200 academics tell of death threats and abuse as battle rages for free speech

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a62dde74-2ec1-11ec-98f2-b73d74f1f44d?shareToken=ed9c5da9b0ecf8356c9217493cc049d7

Prof Lisa Jardine was my tutor for a year (my original tutor on sabbatical) and she was totally approachable but absolutely take-no-prisoners in terms of academic rigour.

She was wonderful. Such a fantastic body of work she published.

It’s why you go - to be challenged, to develop your critical thinking, to learn how to structure an argument or see past the surface and explore a subject in depth. indeed. Not sure all the students have understood why they are at university.

It's shocking how far the TRAs are going, but worse is how much those in charge are reluctant to tell the biological truth. What is so wrong with saying humans can't change sex?! Or saying "trans women are trans women" rather than TWAW? I'm very much hoping that sense will eventually prevail and that people like these students will understand that, in life, they will have to learn to deal with those who have opposing views...in a mature manner rather than by bullying and harassing. What is happening to Prof Stock is unacceptable, as is her university's lack of backbone in supporting her.

You’re SUPPOSED to feel “intellectually threatened” by your professors at university. It’s why you go - to be challenged, to develop your critical thinking, to learn how to structure an argument or see past the surface and explore a subject in depth...Kathleen Stock is a professor of philosophy, for crying out loud. If you can’t debate ideas and belief systems and the way they interact with social norms in fucking philosophy, why the fuck agree anyone should study it at all.

Totally agree @NoSquirrels. It beggars belief doesn't it

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

They chose the University's Open Day for their masked protest. On another thread a mother reported seeing them while looking around with her potential applicant teenager. Extraordinary that security didn't move the masked mob on, but I suppose the university admin is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I was very struck by the sign put up on campus a couple of weeks ago which said something like 'We aren't paying £9250 to be taught by a transphobe'. Treating students like consumers has been a huge mistake. Students are admitted to a university so that they can study and learn. They shouldn't be able to dictate what they are taught on the grounds that they want to avoid any topic where they might be presented with views they disagree with.

Irrespective of how much they paid to be taught, it's clear that they're brains aren't in the best possible shape for learning.

Them pay £9250 for a year of tuition is like me paying £50 for 40 litres of petrol despite have a large hole in the bottom of my fuel tank.

@GoldChick

It’s why you go - to be challenged, to develop your critical thinking, to learn how to structure an argument or see past the surface and explore a subject in depth. indeed. Not sure all the students have understood why they are at university.

To be fair, given the cost of uni now, and the fact that we live under a really cruel form of capitalism, uni is pretty much now -

A place for some middle class and rich kids to indulge their fantasies of becoming a pop star or actor, or learn for the sake of learning.

A place for the masses to go in order to get a piece of paper that gives them the possibility of getting a job that is neither minimum wage nor deeply unpleasant to do. Learning isn't really a primary concern, and I have a lot of sympathy with that.

[quote MiladyBerserko]Academics' letter in The Times today.

200 academics tell of death threats and abuse as battle rages for free speech

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a62dde74-2ec1-11ec-98f2-b73d74f1f44d?shareToken=ed9c5da9b0ecf8356c9217493cc049d7[/quote]
This needs a thread of it’s own. So stark and horrifying when laid out so clearly…..

@Skatastic

It is disgusting and rooted in misogyny. I follow Prof Stock on twitter and she is amazing.

I am truly scared for what the future holds for women.

I might actually join Twitter just to follow Professor Stock!

I am truly scared for what the future holds for women

THIS. Absolutely this. Woman are sleepwalking into having their identity and rights obliterated.

Them pay £9250 for a year of tuition is like me paying £50 for 40 litres of petrol despite have a large hole in the bottom of my fuel tank.

Re University Challenge, they got the lowest score since Jeremy Paxman took over as presenter when the series was brought back, which (incredibly) is nearly 30 years ago now. They spent a large part of the programme with a negative score after incorrect interruptions.

"They spent a large part of the programme with a negative score after incorrect interruptions."

Hilariously apt.

the lack of critical thinking terrifies me.

What's happening to KS and others like her is sickening.

How did we ever get to the situation where saying a person cannot ACTUALLY change sex is thought to be a belief that can be rejected rather than a proven fact?

It's extraordinary.

And depressing.