To think working class is not synonymous with 'poor'?

[lolliwillowes]

I know a fairly diverse range of people and have lived an several places where there has been an even mix of social and cultural backgrounds - both rural and urban.

I was just reading a diet/science thread from a few months ago and there is a lot of discussion surround poverty and obesity (which I am certain is true), except many people classified 'poverty' and 'working class'.

I think this is a really odd presumption. I have met many poor MC and well off WC and it has been unpredictable to say the least. The main difference between these groups have mostly been in their tastes, beliefs, interests, and behaviours, not cash flow.
The poorest people I have witnessed were possibly originally in one of the above social groups, but to presume poverty is synonymous with being working class is problematic.

I suppose if one has only ever existed in a very wealthy environment then the presumption may seem genuine, but I'm quite certain it is not. I would personally say that I have observed that different social groups respond differently to poverty, hence creating these stereotypes. Typical WC jobs tend to pay less, that is for certain, but it still seems odd to associate poverty with a group that regularly earns and owns property.

Is there an extra group which fits the definition better? I don't know. What I do know is that noting is simple - I grew up MC, the environment, the education, but have rented all of my life through choice (I am an artist and like to move around), so some may presume, on paper, I am something other than what I am, until they meet me and chat!

I would conclude that much of this lies with education, and I don't just mean academically. Cultural and social capital, and having learned how to react in a crisis, both in the home and later, at school. Many don't have that privilege and never learn how.

YANBU. My ex husband is working class and not poor, he earns over £60k driving trains. You don't suddenly change class when your financial status changes.

I am working class and earn less than £10 an hour but due to good fortune I own my own home as a single person. I do not think of myself as poor, I don't have to worry about paying the bills.

I have a middle class friend who works as a teacher earning more than me but rents a room in a flat share.

I grew up as part of the underclass , single parent on benefits. Now I live a v middle class life. I like to split the difference and label myself working class.

It really is useless isn’t it. I know some quite ‘posh’ people who have hardly any money. But hopeless at life.

Some tradespeople are very wealthy. Are builders for example thought of as working class? They tend to be loaded round here!

If I was a fully employed working class (renter or homeowner - because renting is expensive unless you receive assistance) adult I would feel confused. Seeing people online refer to WC as obese and poor.

I just want to add that I obviously do not assign any judgement value to any these groups, hence I do not consider poverty to be beneath me.

I would also like to know what defines an 'underclass'? How does it form and progress? Is it created by the system or a result of handed down values, etc? We all know most of us could experience poverty to some degree in a lifetime, but I do wonder what creates a class that is considered beneath....class.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I think the issue is that you have so many middle class people adamant that they are working class.

For example I have a family member, they have just sold their house for £500k and her husband earns six figures, but no, they are working class! I also know a couple of “working class” Professors who have about four degrees each 😂

@Tippexy

I think the issue is that you have so many middle class people adamant that they are working class.

For example I have a family member, they have just sold their house for £500k and her husband earns six figures, but no, they are working class! I also know a couple of “working class” Professors who have about four degrees each 😂

I see what you mean, although I find it odd that many people associate WC with obesity. I think there are certain 'tribes' within all social groups that just go about things differently.

A friend of mine grew up WC in council and his family were financially comfortable, etc. However, they actively discouraged him from education and ridiculed his interest in art and reading. This, to me, is a tribal thing, and not all WC are the same. It fairly messed up his youth although he is now in music production and living a good life.

I also have an MC relative who is disabled and unable to work. She refused to live in an extension her parent's built when she was young and never married. She struggles now and can barely make ends meet, not to mention the endless harassment from DWP who treat her with suspicion even though she is crippled with arthritis. This has not affected her values of interests, and she is still very 'noticeably' MC.

I think it is weird how these things all intermingle, so nothing is ever so simple.

I don't classes are even a thing anymore really, are they?

The ‘working class’ used to refer to those who had to work for a living. The rest could live off their land/capital gains (there were plenty of ex army etc families who retired early from the military and could afford not to work).

Nowadays it seems synonymous with ‘poor’ which baffles me as not all ‘professional’ jobs (like social work) pays well and skilled manual work such is plumbing etc is very lucrative.

I do think it's associated with being poor, even though that isn't really what I'd define class by.

Class is such a nebulous thing to define, even in a country so obsessed with it. My mum grew up with horses and a Jaguar and what I'd assume based off stereotypes was a solidly middle-class lifestyle, but both my grandparents worked all their life running their small business with long hours and backbreaking work. What does that count as? I'd say working class - in that they had to work, and the type of work was not professional work - but they also owned a business and were reasonably well off, with luxuries like horses and fancy cars, which I'd say were middle class. How do you define it?!

Doesn't working class mean you have a manual unskilled job? Those jobs tend to be lowly paid so it's not surprising people equate it with poverty IMO. It's weird to me that people are so hung up on class though, often desperate to hold on to the label of working class despite having a degree and earning 50k.
It's seems so outdated now I think and really doesn't work as a system in this day and age especially with so many people going to university.

Most people I know would consider themselves working class. None of them are on benefits of below the poverty line.

YANBU

I think it’s all become pretty meaningless. Many celebrities still consider themselves ‘working class’ because they come from a working class background, despite earning millions.
I can’t remember her name, but someone on loose women argued this once - ‘I’m still working class because I work…’
Err so do most people of all ‘classes.’
There’s some kind of arbitrary pride attached to it. For some it’s more to do with the food you eat and how you behave than how much money you have. I’m going stick my head on the block and say - in 2021 working class isn’t really a thing anymore. But for some reason people want to keep an imaginary version of it going.

Oh and both DH and I went to university and are homeowners.

Both resolutely WC with scouse accents.

I was privately educated via a scholarship and went to a Russell group uni so I am in no wa, naive to the realities of who the middle class are in this country and just because you are educated and solvent you don't join their ranks over the course of a generation, or even two.

The WC are a very varied group. The MC less so.

I find it all really fascinating. I love the different opinions on class.

I think class is a huge thing, but it is far more complex and nuanced than upper, middle and working. There are numerous sub groups.

I dont really like class based terms, they dont really correlate to anything meaningful.

I would probably define people loosely by sort of occupation in the context of professionals, trades, consumer related (retail, hospitality etc) unemployed, students.....

"Is there an extra group which fits the definition better? I don't know."

The Underclass fits this definition. This is my background. I grew up in a council house with a single mother on benefits. I had FSM throughout my entire school career, and most of my clothes and toys were secondhand (through necessity, not because of fashion ). Most of my childhood friends were also in the underclass with similar living standards to me.

I now work as a registered veterinary nurse, and consider myself to have moved up the ranks to join the working class.

It is interesting, because on mumsnet there are many conversations regarding working class and middle class, but hardly any mention of the underclass.

I am a single mum, I work and get top up benefits as I'm on a low wage but DS doesn't get free school meals, I would not call myself underclass.

The working class are not and have never been a homogenous group. My parents grew up in 30s. Mum was poor (did not have adequate food or clothing) but went to a grammar school and 'stayed on' until age 16. My dad also working class was not poor, left school at 14 and was in a middle class occupation by the age of 40. The whole thing was a lot more nuanced even then.

The mean household income of working class families, back in 2013, was £13,000.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey

Yes I'm sure there are outliers but the mean income is a poverty one.

My definition of poverty would be not having adequate food clothing. The problem now is more often one of social depravation which excludes individuals and is a more complex issue than poverty.

@girlmom21

I don't classes are even a thing anymore really, are they?

Spend a day in North Manchester and see if you still think this.

@ZednotZee

Oh and both DH and I went to university and are homeowners.

Both resolutely WC with scouse accents.

I was privately educated via a scholarship and went to a Russell group uni so I am in no wa, naive to the realities of who the middle class are in this country and just because you are educated and solvent you don't join their ranks over the course of a generation, or even two.

The WC are a very varied group. The MC less so.

Interesting! I think it depends upon your experience, and maybe where you live, too. Ive seen so many sides of the coin, and experienced some wildly diverse environments. Not all of them have been welcoming. But I do put it down to 'tribes' as opposed to class, which, as a term, is a touch more academic.

Such a different set of responses to me between Harrogate, Keswick and Chorley (nr wigan). I found it was a lot more about how I was received than how I perceived them........In Chorley I was suspect because I was painter. In Ambleside I was received with open arms. I tend to gravitate to where I can be myself, which is tricky sometimes!

However, in my experience (and only mine) I saw it the other way around - a wide variety in the MC and a narrower band of behaviours and values in the WC. But I honestly don't think there is a true definition either way.

No, of course not!

I think it's more of a 'thing' on MN than I've seen in RL tbh.
The view I get overall from here is that WC are salt of the earth, hardworking with a good work ethic and a deeper understanding of being poor and empathetic towards people not in as good as situation as them.
Where as MC seems to get a lot of stick, they may work but they're seen more as the cosseted crowd who had a lot of advantages growing up to get them where they are and maybe don't understand that it's not a given for everyone to achieve what they have. They also seem to be welded (this is my observation only) to the idea that hard work = success and that if you're not successful, you're not working hard enough.

I think many MC don't like that assessment and hold on to being WC as they think it paints them in a better light.

I think there is an 'underclass' but it's not really that different to WC and is more circumstances based than actual class. With wages being so low, even ft working families need to sometimes rely on benefits or social housing to keep them afloat when they're in low paid jobs, or they're single parent families who only have one income coming in and have to rely on benefits to live either as a top up or source of full income because they don't have childcare etc. And they have little chance of owning property because of renting at high costs, deposits and house prices.
I'm in the last one, I work ft but progression is limited and slow because it offers vocational training. It's a role essential to society, but pays poorly, though the demands for it (alongside many other similar roles) have increased, and I think part of the issue is that historically, women did these types of jobs for 'pin money', there was no expectations that they'd be lived off, and we've never really progressed past that in terms of pay or how the roles are viewed in general. If I were paid enough to cover the cost of living, then I'd be WC. As it is although I do work, and ft, because of my job role and income, I'm probably considered 'underclass'.

For me personally, I think the class system is outdated because someone can be MC but struggle financially but for different reasons than a WC or UC person does or vice versa. I think it used to go on the type of job you did, your income, interests and living situation, but society and the world has changed so much that it's really diverse now.
For example, to some I'm UC as I live in social housing and am a single parent claiming benefits, to some I'm WC because I work ft, to some I'm MC because of my upbringing, how I speak and because I 'have' a horse (assumptions are made about that and how I got and afford it which are waay off).