To think working class is not synonymous with 'poor'?

[lolliwillowes]

I know a fairly diverse range of people and have lived an several places where there has been an even mix of social and cultural backgrounds - both rural and urban.

I was just reading a diet/science thread from a few months ago and there is a lot of discussion surround poverty and obesity (which I am certain is true), except many people classified 'poverty' and 'working class'.

I think this is a really odd presumption. I have met many poor MC and well off WC and it has been unpredictable to say the least. The main difference between these groups have mostly been in their tastes, beliefs, interests, and behaviours, not cash flow.
The poorest people I have witnessed were possibly originally in one of the above social groups, but to presume poverty is synonymous with being working class is problematic.

I suppose if one has only ever existed in a very wealthy environment then the presumption may seem genuine, but I'm quite certain it is not. I would personally say that I have observed that different social groups respond differently to poverty, hence creating these stereotypes. Typical WC jobs tend to pay less, that is for certain, but it still seems odd to associate poverty with a group that regularly earns and owns property.

Is there an extra group which fits the definition better? I don't know. What I do know is that noting is simple - I grew up MC, the environment, the education, but have rented all of my life through choice (I am an artist and like to move around), so some may presume, on paper, I am something other than what I am, until they meet me and chat!

I would conclude that much of this lies with education, and I don't just mean academically. Cultural and social capital, and having learned how to react in a crisis, both in the home and later, at school. Many don't have that privilege and never learn how.

@EnidFrighten

The problem is that we talk about class as if nothing had changed since the 1930s. I don't think it means anything. Especially when supposedly middle class young people have higher levels of financial instability, find it harder to buy a property etc than supposedly working class people in professions like building. It's more about heritage and traditions than actual resource and privilege.

The heritage and traditions thing is very white British focused though. It isn't very inclusive or anyone outside of this.

@Lockdownbear no, I would not consider an airline pilot working class, it takes a hell of a lot longer to train to be a pilot than a train driver and it usually costs a 5 figure sum to train to be a pilot. It does not cost that to become a train driver.

The heritage and traditions thing is very white British focused though. It isn't very inclusive or anyone outside of this.

This is very true. Something else that has crossed my mind, I struggle to say this without sounding racist. But it's crossed my mind that many people/ families who have come to the UK, particularly from India and Pakistan with very little have within a couple of generations got large houses, kids going to private school etc.

There must be some sort of mindset amongst them, possibly they make more by being self employed rather than employed by others.

Many have also come to the UK from the Caribbean, they don't seem to climb the social ladder in the same way.

@Tippexy

Thing is, that’s me. I’m a Dr of chemistry, ex-pat in Switzerland, very high salary, multiple properties in 3 countries. But I grew up in a shitty part of Birmingham, went to a comp. Dad was a factory worker and Mum a dinner lady (although homeowners).

I’ve been told by various public-school types that I’ll always be working class. An ex-boss said once “remember Flocon, you might have a PhD but you’ll still only ever be a girl from Birmingham”.

I’ve been in Switzerland for 10 years now and I’m glad to be free of the British class system. Which looked down it’s nose at me because I spoke with a Brummie accent.

And no, I don’t associate working class people with poverty or obesity. Most of my family are working class, none are ‘poor’ nor even overweight. Poverty is linked with long-term unemployment, the ‘benefits class’. This group is often erroneously referred to as working class when they aren’t, by very definition.

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@Lockdownbear no, I would not consider an airline pilot working class, it takes a hell of a lot longer to train to be a pilot than a train driver and it usually costs a 5 figure sum to train to be a pilot. It does not cost that to become a train driver.[/quote]
Training to be a train driver isn't cheap either even although its paid for by the train companies.
It's still a responsible job, train & 100s of passengers, on the drivers shoulders.
I think it on the cusp of WC / MC

This is very true. Something else that has crossed my mind, I struggle to say this without sounding racist. But it's crossed my mind that many people/ families who have come to the UK, particularly from India and Pakistan with very little have within a couple of generations got large houses, kids going to private school etc.

There must be some sort of mindset amongst them, possibly they make more by being self employed rather than employed by others.

I believe it is because they've a good work ethic, they value education and have many mentors within the family.
The DC in DD's class from Pakistan and Indian work really hard always get good grades, there parents work hard too.
The extreme poverty and consequences of no education in their home countries means opportunities are not wasted.

Aged 5 one of DD's friends from India always said "I'm going to be a doctor" she is 13 now, top of the class - she will definitely be a doctor.

*their.

This is all ameliorated by acknowledging that class (obsession) is bollocks.

I suppose all working class people like to call each other "Scum" as well !

Where, is the line that somebody becomes middle class or drops into just working class. This line is almost totally invisible and largely depends on how someone chooses to identify what they are.

Upper Middle class probably is the domain of the very wealthy, because of the lifestyle and likelihood of private education. However, many of the Upper Middle classes are increasingly using state Grammar schools for their D.C.

have many mentors within the family

I think you might have hit it on the head there. Certainly people will make more money being their own boss than they ever will working for someone else. But I can't imagine having the confidence to open my own business. Which might be where mentoring comes into it.

They certainly value education, with a very high percentage of them choosing private school if they can afford to do it.

How do we get native UK people and other ethic minorities to value education in the same way?

And get that level of confidence to become their own boss?
Is the opening their own shops and stuff related to them supporting people to open a shop and once they are established they then support others to do the same?

The more I think about it they really are breaking the barriers of the UK classes. And a handful making their way into powerful political positions.

I've just looked up Rishi Sunak, born to immigrant parents, who sent him to private school.

It's got me thinking what are the UK state schools lacking ?

@Lockdownbear

The heritage and traditions thing is very white British focused though. It isn't very inclusive or anyone outside of this.

This is very true. Something else that has crossed my mind, I struggle to say this without sounding racist. But it's crossed my mind that many people/ families who have come to the UK, particularly from India and Pakistan with very little have within a couple of generations got large houses, kids going to private school etc.

There must be some sort of mindset amongst them, possibly they make more by being self employed rather than employed by others.

Many have also come to the UK from the Caribbean, they don't seem to climb the social ladder in the same way.

I struggle to say this without sounding racist

You've managed to sound racist pretty well 👌🏽

Of the 22 UK Cabinet ministers, excluding ,Boris, 7 were either born to parents who were immigrants to the UK or they themselves migrated to the UK as a child. That seems a very high percentage to me to get to that level in one generation.

I don't think class markers mean much nowadays, it's all much more nuanced than it used to be. Time for a rethink.

But yanbu to suggest that many traditional WC jobs are not poorly paid in today's terms.

I mean, there may be some social nuances, education levels, etc. But given we are not in feudal times with Lords and agrarian worker and there is economic mobility, isn't affluence THE ultimate class marker between working, middle, upper middle, upper classes (minted old money)? At least broadly speaking