To think working class is not synonymous with 'poor'?

[lolliwillowes]

I know a fairly diverse range of people and have lived an several places where there has been an even mix of social and cultural backgrounds - both rural and urban.

I was just reading a diet/science thread from a few months ago and there is a lot of discussion surround poverty and obesity (which I am certain is true), except many people classified 'poverty' and 'working class'.

I think this is a really odd presumption. I have met many poor MC and well off WC and it has been unpredictable to say the least. The main difference between these groups have mostly been in their tastes, beliefs, interests, and behaviours, not cash flow.
The poorest people I have witnessed were possibly originally in one of the above social groups, but to presume poverty is synonymous with being working class is problematic.

I suppose if one has only ever existed in a very wealthy environment then the presumption may seem genuine, but I'm quite certain it is not. I would personally say that I have observed that different social groups respond differently to poverty, hence creating these stereotypes. Typical WC jobs tend to pay less, that is for certain, but it still seems odd to associate poverty with a group that regularly earns and owns property.

Is there an extra group which fits the definition better? I don't know. What I do know is that noting is simple - I grew up MC, the environment, the education, but have rented all of my life through choice (I am an artist and like to move around), so some may presume, on paper, I am something other than what I am, until they meet me and chat!

I would conclude that much of this lies with education, and I don't just mean academically. Cultural and social capital, and having learned how to react in a crisis, both in the home and later, at school. Many don't have that privilege and never learn how.

The builder that did our loft drives an Audi convertible at weekends (when not in his van) and lives in a house easily worth £750k and this is the North of England. The new housing estate up from the road from me with lovely 4 and 5 bedroomed detached houses have all been bought by tradesmen - their vans are all parked up at weekends.

I am desperately trying to persuade my kids to be plumbers and sparkies, none of your middle class nonsense here!

Sorry to clarify my brother is the only one with an income like our dad's.

We werent rich when I was a kid but we weren't poor. We owned our home and car etc. My brothers went to independent schools via scholarships but this was then stopped by the LEA so me and my sister went to a comprehensive.

@BarbaraofSeville because as part of diversity initiatives there's an attempt to 'open' things up to 'WC'.
KPMG has openly announce its intention to recruite more 'MC' workers.
The LSE has a Social Mobility officer who's supposed to represent the WC.

as with everything it's an oversimplification using outdated notions. With the abundance of degrees not everyone having one will be walking into a well paid job. While a shortage of people in 'WC' professions (HGV drivers, tube drivers anyone?) mean that they can be far more financially privielged.

Come to think of it - the TRUE defintion of WC maybe be as pp mentioned be related to mindset. But you can't measure people's mindsets can you? So the proxies of income and education levels are used which (when one is high and the other low) may not reflect the truth of whether a background is 'deprived' enough to merit special consideration to improve 'diversity'.

Just like how a lot of participants of big graduate employer racial diversity programmes are the children of rich international students/migrant professionals , not the born and bred British BAME brought up on council estates.

WC not MC sorry

I thought working class is defined by non home-owning, non- Uni educated manual worker.

Working class is absolutely not synonymous with 'poor' but when it comes to making links between poverty and obesity it is likely that a lack of education (both formal and by having parents who taught you to shop, cook, budget etc) is going to compound the problems causes by a lack of money

I come from a fairly MC background and am confident that even if money was really tight this would not cause me to become obese because I know how to cook nutritious meals with basic and cheap ingredients

Obviously there are people from MC backgrounds who can't cook or budget and people from WC backgrounds who are brilliant cooks but on a population level people with a more WC background are less likely to have benefited from a decent education and parents who had the time, knowledge and inclination to pass on important life skills

In addition if you come from a MC background you are far more likely to have friends or family who can help you out if you end up in financial dire straits

@freelions

Working class is absolutely not synonymous with 'poor' but when it comes to making links between poverty and obesity it is likely that a lack of education (both formal and by having parents who taught you to shop, cook, budget etc) is going to compound the problems causes by a lack of money

I come from a fairly MC background and am confident that even if money was really tight this would not cause me to become obese because I know how to cook nutritious meals with basic and cheap ingredients

Obviously there are people from MC backgrounds who can't cook or budget and people from WC backgrounds who are brilliant cooks but on a population level people with a more WC background are less likely to have benefited from a decent education and parents who had the time, knowledge and inclination to pass on important life skills

In addition if you come from a MC background you are far more likely to have friends or family who can help you out if you end up in financial dire straits

Ok, but how do you know whether people are MC or WC?

It's all changed now working class is very different to what it was supposedly categorised as.

What I have noticed is really the new wc or below are actually people with many different sen that have not been diagnosed at all so they have a simply been left without an education, often extremely bright, sometimes not. But they have fallen through our education system.

On another note in my family, df side don't value education at all but they are cash rich. They have a holiday home in tenerife and a caravan in Tenby. They rarely venture anywhere else.

They don't really read books or go to the theatre etc.
They seem to be very narrow in what they like or do. The other side where much poorer but valued eduction to a massive degree, and a large poor Catholic family became very educated, music, literature and they simply seem more interesting to be around in terms of conversation and life style etc.
Some now have more modest homes than the other side, some far larger but nealry all are world wide travelers and enjoy the arts.
I can't help but feel their lives are richer.

Yes, they are definitely separate. I know some middle class families without a penny to spare but live a certain way (off-grid) because they know deep down they have family wealth if really needed.
On the other hand, I know working class families with newly acquired wealth who just seem to do things a bit differently to middle class families (obsession with cleaning / winter sun / big cars).

I thought working class is defined by non home-owning, non- Uni educated manual worker.

Well that was the case a couple of generations ago I suppose.
Half of the WC now own property and have been to university if aged under forty or so.
All of my family are second generation homeowners and most of my generation have degrees; teaching/nursing/social sciences/business etc.

Some people on here are really obsessed with class in real life I’ve never met a person who gives it a second thought

Snd op if you were genuinely curious you’d have read some more articles and seen many that define working class like that, but that’s not as fun is it

I honestly think it’d the same posters whi name change and keep starting these threads.

It’s interesting how the class lines have blurred.
Take the example of ‘celebrity’ plumber Charlie Mullins - brought up on a council estate in total absolute poverty, left school with limited education & now worth many millions of pounds - he definitely was working class, is he now? Can you move up (or down) a class?
My own parents ( dad especially) very poor upbringing (14 kids in a 3 bed council flat, dad in & out of prison) now worth a considerable amount. Parents live a very comfortable life but as soon as you heard either one of them speak you would know they were working class.

@TractorAndHeadphones most of the time I don't know or care whether people are WC or MC (or aristocrats for that matter!)

If the person is a good friend then chances are I will know a bit about their background so will have an idea of whether they have WC or MC roots but it really isn't something I spend much time thinking about and I certainly don't judge friends and acquaintances on their upbringing as it is obviously something that none of us having any choice in!

I think that there are limbos between the classes. Some of the posters on here who are describing their education and their home ownership sound pretty posh to me, so I’m not sure I’d consider them working class. They’d stick out like a sore thumb where I live. But having read some of the mc attitudes on here, I don’t necessarily think they’d be accepted as middle class either.

@Bluntness100

Some people on here are really obsessed with class in real life I’ve never met a person who gives it a second thought

Snd op if you were genuinely curious you’d have read some more articles and seen many that define working class like that, but that’s not as fun is it

I honestly think it’d the same posters whi name change and keep starting these threads.

I think it’s like that slightly odd recent thread by a poster who claimed she’d never come across the acronym ‘SAHM’’ (which she thought was pronounced ‘sarm’) outside of Mn, because she lived in a bubble where no women worked, hence the term SAHM was redundant. Because most people don’t talk explicitly about social class, and people are franker about their class prejudices etc on an anonymous forum, some people think Mn invented social class.

No definition of working class sees it as poverty. Working class is either working in a non-professional job where the worker and their family has no control over their terms and conditions, whether or not they have the job etc. Middle class is not about having a particular income, but rather having some control of income. That may come from being a professional such that their skills can be marketed independently or owning the business.

@girlmom21

I don't classes are even a thing anymore really, are they?

They absolutely are. It’s about power and control over your life!

No, not at all.
We're working class, my Dbro is a millionaire he is a builder by trade, my Dsis is an accountant/landlord of 4 properties.
They haven't changed, both proud WC.

Money doesn't change class, unfortunately some people get notions about money and believe it puts them in a new league.

Similarly some mc people lose their money but that doesn't make them wc they've all the traits of their upbringing regardless of their bank balance.

The Underclass fits this definition. This is my background. I grew up in a council house with a single mother on benefits. I had FSM throughout my entire school career, and most of my clothes and toys were secondhand (through necessity, not because of fashion hmm). Most of my childhood friends were also in the underclass with similar living standards to me.
Underclass - fucking hell. Who labels people like that it is vile.

I class myself as middle class, from a working class background (Dad was East End, large family living in 2 rooms, Mum similar). They 'bettered' themselves and i grew up in a 4 bed detached.

I now own my business, private school for my 2 children, private health, 3 foreign hols etc etc, lots of property.

On paper we could perhaps be described as upper-middle but i would never describe or think of myself as that.

Social class definitely goes beyond money.

So many people here trying to tease out what is middle class and what is working class / lower class / underclass
And more people pretending that class doesn't matter (tip - it does!)
And some people saying they read about it on MN but no-one in real life talks about it - well that is because it is socially taboo, even more so that striking up a casual conversation about death or sex.

What really matters is the upper class. They know who they are, they know who each other are, and they know that you are not one of them.
They own most of the land, run almost everything, and try their very best to remain invisible. They try to pretend class doesn't matter in this day and age, whilst silently defending to the hilt their own class privilege and exclusivity.
I can't see that we can do much about it though - it goes too deep in our society.

Yanbu. I'm from a MC background, parents and siblings all professionals with degrees, none of us have earned anywhere close to my WC dh. He's a bricklayer. I agree with a pp though, none of this matters as it's the upper classes who hold all the big cards as it always has been.

@lolliwillowes

If I was a fully employed working class (renter or homeowner - because renting is expensive unless you receive assistance) adult I would feel confused. Seeing people online refer to WC as obese and poor.

I just want to add that I obviously do not assign any judgement value to any these groups, hence I do not consider poverty to be beneath me.

I would also like to know what defines an 'underclass'? How does it form and progress? Is it created by the system or a result of handed down values, etc? We all know most of us could experience poverty to some degree in a lifetime, but I do wonder what creates a class that is considered beneath....class.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

The underclass is the segment of the population below the working class generally classified by long term unemployment. I didn't know that there was an underclass until I was at Uni.

@Alpacinoshoohaa what a thing to say - for clarity people who have stereotypically working class jobs don’t all have learning difficulties. I know quite a few white collar professionals who have dyslexia or ASD.

Just because people chose to do manual jobs doesn’t mean they have learning difficulties. My husband left his international career and all his degrees behind and now works in what might be described as a working class job. It was entirely his choice and he earns significantly less but enjoys his job a lot more.

The class thing that the UK is obsessed with is no longer that straightforward. As others have said- people earning millions claiming to be working class, even someone on here (not a dig) whose husband earns £60,000 as a skilled train driver saying it's a working class job. The classifications don't work anymore. Working class was low skilled, low paid. Lower standard of living, usually less focus on education and earlier school leaving. Now it's a badge of honour to 'prove' your working classness, whilst having none of the difficulties which being truly a low income, low skill, usually early school leaver with no career but a job, actually entails.

@Waxonwaxoff0

YANBU. My ex husband is working class and not poor, he earns over £60k driving trains. You don't suddenly change class when your financial status changes.

I am working class and earn less than £10 an hour but due to good fortune I own my own home as a single person. I do not think of myself as poor, I don't have to worry about paying the bills.

I have a middle class friend who works as a teacher earning more than me but rents a room in a flat share.

Would you class an Airline Pilot working class? Before planes Engine Drivers held the same status.