To think working class is not synonymous with 'poor'?

[lolliwillowes]

I know a fairly diverse range of people and have lived an several places where there has been an even mix of social and cultural backgrounds - both rural and urban.

I was just reading a diet/science thread from a few months ago and there is a lot of discussion surround poverty and obesity (which I am certain is true), except many people classified 'poverty' and 'working class'.

I think this is a really odd presumption. I have met many poor MC and well off WC and it has been unpredictable to say the least. The main difference between these groups have mostly been in their tastes, beliefs, interests, and behaviours, not cash flow.
The poorest people I have witnessed were possibly originally in one of the above social groups, but to presume poverty is synonymous with being working class is problematic.

I suppose if one has only ever existed in a very wealthy environment then the presumption may seem genuine, but I'm quite certain it is not. I would personally say that I have observed that different social groups respond differently to poverty, hence creating these stereotypes. Typical WC jobs tend to pay less, that is for certain, but it still seems odd to associate poverty with a group that regularly earns and owns property.

Is there an extra group which fits the definition better? I don't know. What I do know is that noting is simple - I grew up MC, the environment, the education, but have rented all of my life through choice (I am an artist and like to move around), so some may presume, on paper, I am something other than what I am, until they meet me and chat!

I would conclude that much of this lies with education, and I don't just mean academically. Cultural and social capital, and having learned how to react in a crisis, both in the home and later, at school. Many don't have that privilege and never learn how.

This is linked with identity. DH and I both grew up very working class, parents all left school early with no qualifications and went into entry level jobs, parents often working extra jobs cleaning etc to make ends meet. My mum did some childcare qualifications when we were young and ended up eventually running a nursery, but still not brilliantly paid. My dad worked sixty hour weeks until he retired in manual jobs. DHs dad got an apprenticeship with BT and now has a degree and a master's and a senior job earning well (not six figures). Both sets managed to buy houses in the eighties DH and I both have two undergraduate degrees, professional qualifications, I have an MA and he has an MSc. We both have professional jobs, we own our own home and have never had to worry about not paying our bills, tightening our belts means cutting down luxuries not skipping meals. He is adamant we are working class and our child is working class (he attends a very nice Montessori nursery and we are considering private prep). I absolutely grew up working class and at times, poor (more so than him), but I don't think I can still wear that badge honestly, and definitely don't think our son will be able to, DH holds on to it because it's part of his identity. It's so much more complex than income or job title.

I think some of the difference in our perspectives also comes from parental attitudes, I was entitled to FSM DH not, but there was no way in hell my parents wouldn't accepted them, they took on second jobs, cleaning etc rather than claim benefits and are very proud of the fact that never have. I was made redundant as a graduate in a Friday and by Monday I was working in a shop while I looked for other work. DH has periods of unemployment in his younger days that didn't worry him. DB and I were always told get an education be that a degree or a trade (DB took the trade route and out earns me), so maybe I am happier to look beyond my roots because that was the aspiration of my parents for their children. By the time DH was at uni his dad was earning reasonably, they could help him financially and he chose to do an arts degree with no discernible career path. I don't think that's a working class mindset.

@Tippexy

I think the issue is that you have so many middle class people adamant that they are working class.

For example I have a family member, they have just sold their house for £500k and her husband earns six figures, but no, they are working class! I also know a couple of “working class” Professors who have about four degrees each 😂

So how are you defining class? Are you saying that working class people don't go to university and gain qualifications? Surely not?

It's really not clear cut any more and there's no objective definition. Plenty of people from working class backgrounds gain qualifications and are successful. I have a first class degree in a STEM subject and multiple professional qualifications yet am the only person in my family who went to university. Many would still consider me working class and few would consider me middle class if they met me.

I think the issue is that you have so many middle class people adamant that they are working class.

see, I ve never understood this or why people do it.
There was a temporary trend in the 90's where a lot of my friends did it, and we all knew it was ridiculous because we HAD working class friends, and we knew some of the true differences. I once had a male friend turn on me when drunk at a pub in our teens, saying I had no idea what struggle was, and he was quite correct. We remained very good friends, although sadly his life has been very, very difficult as a result of his upbringing.

I can't imagine trying to emulate a different background. Even though my grandfather worked in a pit, the rest of the family were in managerial or small business owners. So whilst not traditionally middle class, my own entrance to this world was.
I have always been fascinated by these odd generalisations, possibly because I have never felt a true identity with any class at all. I am very much an individual and defy most definitions. As a schoolgirl I wanted to throw off the good school, hard study and have a wild time, and thought I had found that in some of the WC friends I made.
Sadly I didnt identify with them, either. Until I found other artists. I don't mean that to sound as pretentious as it does - im quite serious. I was always an odd fit and didnt want to follow any kind of prescription lifestyle, and most of my MC and WC friends just ....did.

At nearly 50, I can now peruse this with interest. I have not led a very ordinary life. But I must admit that as I grow older, my origins come close again, and I am hurtling back towards my roots.

Many would still consider me working class and few would consider me middle class if they met me.

You've hit the nail on the head right there.

Its all a bit disingenuous to talk about the 'MC who insist that they are WC' without taking in to account that class is far more about the accent you speak with rather than your educational/professional attainment and/or solvency.

@ZednotZee

Oh and both DH and I went to university and are homeowners.

Both resolutely WC with scouse accents.

I was privately educated via a scholarship and went to a Russell group uni so I am in no wa, naive to the realities of who the middle class are in this country and just because you are educated and solvent you don't join their ranks over the course of a generation, or even two.

The WC are a very varied group. The MC less so.

But who are the middle class in this case? Is it defined by family background? I sort of know what you mean in the sense that both my parents went to uni in a foreign country (one did a degree via evening course, another had illiterate parents) and while I was brought up reading lots of books etc I didn't really have a lot of cultural capital or knowledge of the world. I thought you worked hard, did your job and got rewarded. I then came here and realised that the majority of international students weren't like me. They all went to international school, did loads of extracurriculars and were groomed for top unis from birth. They knew things like the importance of networking/connections, what to do in fancy restaurants etc etc, how to speak publicly in a polished way. Of course their parents weren't all millionaires but in highly paid professional jobs, there was a courage to take risks and take uni courses like History/Politics whatever without a direct career path with the knowledge that they'd always land on their feet. *as an international student has to leave if they can't find a job and our countries frown upon non-professional degrees most students who take loans etc to study here choose safe career paths rather than what they want to study'. I never fit in no matter how hard I tried. In fact I did have a decent amount of cultural capital but could never talk about things they way they did, with the ease of knowing your place in the world and perspective.

After a few years of having money etc etc I do now, somewhat. People are surprised when they find my background but I still remember arriving in the U.K and wondering how the hell everyone knew to apply for spring weeks - in FRESHER's week!

I think the issue is that you have so many middle class people adamant that they are working class.

I think the issue is that you have so many working class people who have a degree and earn 30K thinking that now they must be MC.
You aren't and sorry to say, you won't be accepted as MC, by the MC on those credentials either.

Hmmm so my story is my parents were WC and poor. My mum left school at 15 with no qualifications. My dad at 16 but my dad was clever and had drive but didn't have the access to educational opportunities. At 24 he took a big leap/huge financial burden and went back to college to become qualified in something.

That choice changed my life.

I was/am okay academically plus I had opportunities plus access to a full grant to study at university plus I had the same drive as my dad. It was a combination of factors that unlocked a different standard of living for me.

I live a very nice lifestyle now and its roots are in my dad's choice way before I was born and being in the right place at the right time.

In my immediate family there are those locked in a cycle of poverty and those that are much more MC in their lifestyles and attitudes.

What made the difference to cousins all born around the same time - the attitude of their parents from what I can see.

I also agree with the poster who said the WC are a much more varied group. As I am WC despite having a nice lifestyle.

In the WC you have lots of people like my dad who transcended the poverty they were born into.

Although on one hand its all bollocks on another hand it matters in our country because class has a direct influence on access to opportunities and wealth distribution.

@ZednotZee

Many would still consider me working class and few would consider me middle class if they met me.

You've hit the nail on the head right there.

Its all a bit disingenuous to talk about the 'MC who insist that they are WC' without taking in to account that class is far more about the accent you speak with rather than your educational/professional attainment and/or solvency.

but I disagree with this also, as I am a complete hybrid due to living in some varied places. I soak up accents like a sponge.

You may be right to a degree, most people put me down as a southerner even though I'm not, but I suspect that Is because I am currently in the north, and many people do pronounce book as 'book' instead of 'buck'.
This is mostly a regional difference but my own native, norther version was alien to me until I was 15.

I also knew a lot of MC Liverpudlians. They said 'bus' instead of 'buzz'. There are so many variations in the north that it is difficult to pin it down in terms of class.

I also knew a lot of MC Liverpudlians.

I don't even think there are a lot of liverpudlians who would admit to considering themselves MC
I worked with a scouse consultant surgeon who was proudly WC.
We tend to baulk at the suggestion up here

Social class is very real and inescapable in British society. We probably need new labels, especially for these groups:

White-collar professionals in jobs that don't pay much. They might call themselves working class in that they need to work for a living- but are probably degree-educated, ballet and horseriding lessons blah di blah

Manual workers in jobs that are in great demand (plumbers etc swimming in cash)

People in precarious, low-paid employment ("the working poor" I suppose?)

People out of work, living in social housing and dependent on state benefits long-term.

All of the above could be described as working class but they have nothing to do with the traditional "salt of the earth" type.

@Cherryana

I also agree with the poster who said the WC are a much more varied group. As I am WC despite having a nice lifestyle. In the WC you have lots of people like my dad who transcended the poverty they were born into.

Although on one hand its all bollocks on another hand it matters in our country because class has a direct influence on access to opportunities and wealth distribution.

Most of the WC people I have known still seem to possess certain values which define them. I find this is more prevalent than anything concerned with income or profession. My DP's family, who are WC still think he is a nutcase for becoming a composer ( he is now 60) and frequently accuse him of pretentiously using 'long' words for effect when this is just who he is. Many people do not fit easily into their backgrounds. And they generally suffer for it.

The fact that there isn’t any true consensus on what working class or middle class really means would suggest that they are redundant markers for ‘labelling’ sections of society.

@lolliwillowes

They are a different type of WC to my family who have fully embraced my uncle who is a now quite a renowned contemporary choreographer.
Then again, they don't have an issue articulating themselves or understanding those who are themselves articulate.

I don’t know what class I would be, it’s not something I think about.

@MythicalBiologicalFennel

Social class is very real and inescapable in British society. We probably need new labels, especially for these groups:

White-collar professionals in jobs that don't pay much. They might call themselves working class in that they need to work for a living- but are probably degree-educated, ballet and horseriding lessons blah di blah

Manual workers in jobs that are in great demand (plumbers etc swimming in cash)

People in precarious, low-paid employment ("the working poor" I suppose?)

People out of work, living in social housing and dependent on state benefits long-term.

All of the above could be described as working class but they have nothing to do with the traditional "salt of the earth" type.

But why label people at all? I can see why separating people into groups like those would be useful for service provision or advertising but I can't see the use in labelling people as working/middle class when no-one can agree what it means.

I also think there's a lot of confusion amongst people who call themselves MC about what they think WC people are like, interested in, value etc. A lot of the time it's exactly the same as MC people, there's no distinction. But somehow a lot of the MC people seem to think that WC people behave/think differently to how they do.

I don’t think it’s really much of a thing anymore. I was born to teenage parents, my dad had a trade. Grandparents were factory workers and still live in the most deprived borough in the country. Now my dad owns his own company, has a fleet of expensive classic cars and a number of boats and yachts.

I was born into a working class family but have a degree, (the first in my family) and well paid job that was traditionally an upper middle job (Estate Manager). My husband comes from a historically titled family that can trace their family back a thousand years. Social mobility now means that people aren’t limited to their birth circumstances.

It's only really on MN I see this class obsession.
I'm educated to masters level, live in naice area, dc attend the grammar school. I consider hummus, OLIVES and avocado as everyday foods. I'm also on full benefits, dc get FSM due to me being a full time carer for disabled ds. I think I'm now considered underclass on MN.

Must add that dd got bullied in school for saying settee as that was posh apparently, but I learned on MN that that is aspirational!

@Tippexy

I think the issue is that you have so many middle class people adamant that they are working class.

For example I have a family member, they have just sold their house for £500k and her husband earns six figures, but no, they are working class! I also know a couple of “working class” Professors who have about four degrees each 😂

I have four degrees, and while I’m also an academic, I’d probably identify as ‘educated WC’. When you grow up with barely literate parents working in low paid jobs, living in fairly severe deprivation, education, working in a MC profession, and liking opera doesn’t necessarily alter your sense of your own class status.

@therespectablecardigan

Must add that dd got bullied in school for saying settee as that was posh apparently, but I learned on MN that that is aspirational!

I though settee was common, and couch was posh !!!

@SprayedWithDettol

The fact that there isn’t any true consensus on what working class or middle class really means would suggest that they are redundant markers for ‘labelling’ sections of society.

Yes exactly. Also to people saying 'class' is a reality of British society - that may be true but it's much more nuanced than the binary 'working class poor, middle class privileged/rich'. Another example that comes to mind is a friend's relative - a plumber who owns his own business no higher education. His wife is a science graduate whose father went to uni (a big deal in those days!) but is a counsellor and doesn't earn very much. Unlike her husband. What class are they? Out of their 3 children one went to Oxbridge to study classics and is now in the Civil Service, very 'MC' based on all the stereotypes down to the accent. She married an investment banker and is very comfortable there. Her wining, dining and networking abilites would put anybody to shame. One is a farm worker and has a strong 'WC' accent. Is not interested or able to converse about anything other than farm related stuff. Also no higher ed. I have no idea how his accent sounds v different. The other child is only interested in video games, watching a couple of sports and nothing else. Quite an introvert, not many friends. Has a degree but not ambitious, lives in a houseshare and does admin with a small local firm with no desire for anything else. He doesn't earn much but enough to fund his current lifestyle.

What class are all of these three? The first seems clearly MC, the second WC, and the third works in an easily replaceable job with not much income but has a degree.

What is the point of WC and MC by themselves being used as indicators of privilege or otherwise?

Class has nothing to do with money. My late father had virtually no education and could barely read and write, but had a strong work ethic. He worked in the building trade and was very successful.

I'm one of 4, all of us have either degrees or professional qualifications. Only 1 (my brother) has anywhere near the same income. Most people would describe our professions as MC but our incomes don't, but our dad was the opposite

@GoodnightGrandma it is the common term, but the actual posh girls hadn't heard it used before, so declared it as old fashioned and posh 😂