To think working class is not synonymous with 'poor'?

[lolliwillowes]

I know a fairly diverse range of people and have lived an several places where there has been an even mix of social and cultural backgrounds - both rural and urban.

I was just reading a diet/science thread from a few months ago and there is a lot of discussion surround poverty and obesity (which I am certain is true), except many people classified 'poverty' and 'working class'.

I think this is a really odd presumption. I have met many poor MC and well off WC and it has been unpredictable to say the least. The main difference between these groups have mostly been in their tastes, beliefs, interests, and behaviours, not cash flow.
The poorest people I have witnessed were possibly originally in one of the above social groups, but to presume poverty is synonymous with being working class is problematic.

I suppose if one has only ever existed in a very wealthy environment then the presumption may seem genuine, but I'm quite certain it is not. I would personally say that I have observed that different social groups respond differently to poverty, hence creating these stereotypes. Typical WC jobs tend to pay less, that is for certain, but it still seems odd to associate poverty with a group that regularly earns and owns property.

Is there an extra group which fits the definition better? I don't know. What I do know is that noting is simple - I grew up MC, the environment, the education, but have rented all of my life through choice (I am an artist and like to move around), so some may presume, on paper, I am something other than what I am, until they meet me and chat!

I would conclude that much of this lies with education, and I don't just mean academically. Cultural and social capital, and having learned how to react in a crisis, both in the home and later, at school. Many don't have that privilege and never learn how.

Katie Price not working class???

I'd agree boundaries aren't clear and some more blurry than ever.
Doctor is definitely a MC profession.
Health care assistant is working class.

Nurses - I'm sure in the past they'd be classed as WC. But the role has become more highly skilled, taking on work that would have been Doctors in the past are they now firmly a MC profession?

I don't know any of it makes any difference however I do think there are mindset differences between WC and MC.

I think MC are more likely to want to climb the tree, where WC possibly get to the got their trade stage and happy to keep at that level.
Obviously not everyone is the same and some jobs it's easier to get promotion than in others.

I define working class as people who need to work for a living. I absolutely think it is to do with wealth or lack of it.

Apparently though, if you like football you are working class (despite season tickets costing a fortune) but if you like opera you have "cultural capital" and are middle class. Utter nonsense.

And more people pretending that class doesn't matter (tip - it does

It doesn't. Wealth does.

"Certain working class people could never rise above lower-middle class, no matter what they earned. Others might have the right temperament to become middle class proper"

I think this is my favorite ever Mumsnet quote

I've seen a million formulations when it comes to markers of class here, but temperament? Really? That's a first.

Class is more about the package of education, culture and experience than pure income.

It is important to recognise the trends of class and their consequences.
Two children of equal ability in a leafy suburb and struggling inner city school are very likely to have different outcomes of where they progress to. Leafy suburb school is more likely to push towards better esteemed universities and understand their application processes. Their equivilent is more likely to have barriers of contacts who know the system, affordability of going to university, and even the push that university is for "someone like them".
A child who is struggling with a SEN like dyslexia is more likely to get it recognised if their parents are well educated and unfortunately now, diagnosis is often avaliable to those with spare £££. How many children of working and underclass backgrounds are failed because SENs are not recognised, diagnosed and supported. SENs can be part of the "normal" culture of a family and it's hard to see when a child is repeating those family patterns, and where they affect educational outcomes they can get tangled up in the whole cycle of life through a family and affect family confidence with societal systems.

On a population level, there are clear correlations of class and outcomes of education and health. Traditions can be supportive, or they can be restrictive and stiffling.

Social mobility has stalled since the later half of the 20th century.
My dad had a very working class background in what was verging on slums. Bright lad, his biggest regret was not going to grammar school and following his friends to the secondary modern. He worked his way up through night school and worked his way up from the shop floor of factories to the top of management. It was his social skills that made him and he managed the duality of maintaining his working class roots and integrating with the upper middle class management. That kind of progression is harder to achieve today with university being a springboard partway in and more separation of practical experience and qualifications.

@speakupattheback

Katie Price not working class???

What makes her 'working class'?

What does she having in common with someone who eg. Works in a supermarket or drives a lorry?

I grew up on a council estate and went to a shit school but managed to get myself to Uni and have a good professional job that pays well. But I still have a very strong regional accent and what I can only describe as working class values.

But given that my children are growing up in a lovely area, go to a very nice school snd go on regular ski holidays it would be disingenuous of me to describe our family as working class.

So I prefer not to describe myself in terms of class at all. As a PP said it's the upper classes who still rule this bloody country anyway!

But I still have a very strong regional accent and what I can only describe as working class values.

@massistar what are they?

I class myself as middle class, from a working class background.
I don't believe that is possible.
You might live a middle class lifestyle but you're not middle class.
I'm sure MC people would agree with me.
We had a neighbour who was born MC educated sophisticated she was disabled so financially poor living in a working class area, that lady couldn't be wc if she tried.
She had impeccable manners and a posh posture, we loved that lady.
Similarly a wc person may be educated making good money live in an affluent area but they're still working class for a few generations based on real class not the newly defined class massaging ones ego.

Of course you can be middle class from a working class background. My parents are.

And I am working class from a middle class background.

@EmeraldShamrock

I class myself as middle class, from a working class background. I don't believe that is possible. You might live a middle class lifestyle but you're not middle class. I'm sure MC people would agree with me. We had a neighbour who was born MC educated sophisticated she was disabled so financially poor living in a working class area, that lady couldn't be wc if she tried. She had impeccable manners and a posh posture, we loved that lady. Similarly a wc person may be educated making good money live in an affluent area but they're still working class for a few generations based on real class not the newly defined class massaging ones ego.

Ah so it's impeccable manners and good posture that makes you middle class. I had always wondered....

@Rosesareyellow I just find myself out of step sometimes with my lovely MC friends. Eg. Huge monetary rewards for getting good GCSEs after tutoring them to that point. I told my son that his good grades were reward in themselves as they were for his benefit. My children have jobs so they can buy themselves designer gear if they want it. I'm hyper aware of them becoming entitled because they grow up in this lovely little MC bubble.

Ah so it's impeccable manners and good posture that makes you middle class. I had always wondered.
Obviously not only however these markers are there and more noticeable to me as a wc person.
There are many rich people I'd consider wc due to background and behaviours.
A few rich comedians who live a mc lifestyle but are wc.
Katie price is definitely wc as with many reality TV stars who became rich.
It comes down to what you are comfortable with.
If I won the lottery tomorrow I'm still me happily labelled wc.

All these threads show is that there is no consensus about middle class and working class. I think there is a problem because people tend to think that people who are "posh" are intelligent, when that's just not true. So not sure whether David Cameron or Boris Johnson would have made it to PM if they weren't posh. I think we need to let go of these labels as a society...what good does it do to us to endlessly debate what w/c , m/c and u/c are, and to label people as such. What's the point of it all?

@EmeraldShamrock

Ah so it's impeccable manners and good posture that makes you middle class. I had always wondered. Obviously not only however these markers are there and more noticeable to me as a wc person. There are many rich people I'd consider wc due to background and behaviours. A few rich comedians who live a mc lifestyle but are wc. Katie price is definitely wc as with many reality TV stars who became rich. It comes down to what you are comfortable with. If I won the lottery tomorrow I'm still me happily labelled wc.

Why do you need a label? Why do you need to know your rank in society?

Why do you need a label? Why do you need to know your rank in society?
I didn't ask for it, society issues labels on others and treats them accordingly even in a professional manner.
Example, I'm having an issue with my bank since July for a charge book on a service I didn't receive I've had to provide ridiculous statements no refunds to date, my Dsis with a healthy bank balance at the same hotel had the same issue, she'd her money returned within 14 days.
I've sent a discriminatory email.

@EmeraldShamrock

Why do you need a label? Why do you need to know your rank in society? I didn't ask for it, society issues labels on others and treats them accordingly even in a professional manner. Example, I'm having an issue with my bank since July for a charge book on a service I didn't receive I've had to provide ridiculous statements no refunds to date, my Dsis with a healthy bank balance at the same hotel had the same issue, she'd her money returned within 14 days. I've sent a discriminatory email.

We - people - ARE society. You can choose to define yourself or not. I seriously doubt the hotel thing is because they labelled you on their system as working class.

You can choose to define yourself or not. I seriously doubt the hotel thing is because they labelled you on their system as working class.
I think it is as the hotel are disputing the issue and the bank is placing suspicion on my empty bank, my Dsis had the same issue they accepted her version as the truth immediately.

I am proud of my roots either way, there is a lot of humble pride and community spirit amongst the w.c.

Sure you can be proud of your beginnings, community etc. But my point is that you don't have to call yourself anything. I think class has always been a very useful tool for capitalism to ensure it has people in the places they need them. But while this might keep things like manufacturing going, it also places massive limits on people's lives. I think that if you accept traditional ideas of class and, for example, pass that onto your kids you are limiting their ambitions and aspirations and I think that is just rubbish. Everyone should have the opportunity to be the best they can. That isn't going against your class or your background. It is living.

I really don't feel you can label people as being MC based on things like university education or home ownership anymore. Given right to buy and the drive to make further education more accessible.

For example I was raised by a lone parent in a council house, received free school meals and we even had a period of real poverty while I was at primary school where a local charity paid for some short holidays to a caravan park.

I was an average student at school mainly due to bullying but went to university in my late 20s and got a degree. First in my family to do so.

I have a professional job now but only earn £28k. I'm a lone parent, own my home (very modest terraced ex council), in a solidly working class area we don't struggle financially. I have a Glasgow accent and I don't think anyone would ever describe me as being middle class in any way.

@Twelveshoes

Of course you can be middle class from a working class background. My parents are.

And I am working class from a middle class background.

I'd agree you can definitely be MC from a WC background and vice versa.

It used to be a thing a Yuppie, Young Upwardly-mobile Professional.

I’m not so sure about ‘becoming WC from a MC background’ — if your parents grew up MC but had, say, lost all their money and for some reason had to take unskilled minimum-wage jobs so you had a relatively poor childhood, they would still be able to hand on their social and cultural capital to their children.

The only way I can imagine it happening within in a single generation would be if someone became a refugee and had to start over somewhere with no cultural/social/financial capital.