To think working class is not synonymous with 'poor'?

[lolliwillowes]

I know a fairly diverse range of people and have lived an several places where there has been an even mix of social and cultural backgrounds - both rural and urban.

I was just reading a diet/science thread from a few months ago and there is a lot of discussion surround poverty and obesity (which I am certain is true), except many people classified 'poverty' and 'working class'.

I think this is a really odd presumption. I have met many poor MC and well off WC and it has been unpredictable to say the least. The main difference between these groups have mostly been in their tastes, beliefs, interests, and behaviours, not cash flow.
The poorest people I have witnessed were possibly originally in one of the above social groups, but to presume poverty is synonymous with being working class is problematic.

I suppose if one has only ever existed in a very wealthy environment then the presumption may seem genuine, but I'm quite certain it is not. I would personally say that I have observed that different social groups respond differently to poverty, hence creating these stereotypes. Typical WC jobs tend to pay less, that is for certain, but it still seems odd to associate poverty with a group that regularly earns and owns property.

Is there an extra group which fits the definition better? I don't know. What I do know is that noting is simple - I grew up MC, the environment, the education, but have rented all of my life through choice (I am an artist and like to move around), so some may presume, on paper, I am something other than what I am, until they meet me and chat!

I would conclude that much of this lies with education, and I don't just mean academically. Cultural and social capital, and having learned how to react in a crisis, both in the home and later, at school. Many don't have that privilege and never learn how.

When my friend traded her 50" telly in for a smaller one, her brother said to her, "Well done! You've rejoined the ranks of the middle class". 🙄 I mean, we have a 50" so we're probably "working class" by their definition.

This same friend started seeing a guy who owns a fairly successful business, but her Dad wasn't keen as he wears branded clothes and doesn't know anything about opera (apparently this makes him a "chav".)

It's so complicated!

I hate the assumption that it's only the upper and middle classes that are interested in art, culture, politics etc it simply isn't true. In my experience, the people who judge and make assumptions are the problem. The class system is outdated rubbish and anyone who thinks they are 'better' than someone else using these ridiculous markers is deluded.

I’m not so sure about ‘becoming WC from a MC background’ — if your parents grew up MC but had, say, lost all their money and for some reason had to take unskilled minimum-wage jobs so you had a relatively poor childhood, they would still be able to hand on their social and cultural capital to their children

I have 2 examples of this in our family. DFIL was born to an army general and a minor aristocrat. He had by the standards of the time (and now) a very upper middle class upbringing (nannies, public school, sailing, skiing). He didn't go to University but qualified as an accountant. He suffered from a gambling addiction and alcoholism which cost him his first marriage (to DMIL) and the family home. He returned home and was "set up" with a flat and a job , again he lost it all. At this point his DM rewrote her will so that although he had use of the inheritance he couldn't spend it and it would pass directly to his sons (my DH). He then remarried and had futher children but the will was not re-written. He died in Febuary living in a house that DH and DBIL own, on the state pension, begging us for money fairly frequently. His daughter from his second marriage has enjoyed no cultural capital, in fact she has had periods of significant poverty in her childhood, she will always need to work and his widow now has no property and no pension. I would say DSIL is working class.

Sorry other one is Dbro.
Middle of the road middle class childhood like me and Dsis. But had a mental health crisis in his 2nd year at University and somehow seems to have " got stuck" he is 34 next week and lives in a rented flat, has a series of short term jobs, no pension. He may still have a middle class accent but his lifestyle is very WC as are his friends and girl friends. I suspect any children he has will not consider themselves MC.

So addiction and mental health crises will depreciate your social class pretty quickly

I live in a council house, on a council estate and have to say the number of luxury vehicles around here is huge. Lots of construction workers who made good also occupy the very grand private estate about 15 minutes away, the houses are spectacular and massive. I definitely think new money outweighs the numbers of families from old money were I live in London.

I think that sometimes people is 'working class' as a euphemism for 'poor', but you're right, they're not synonymous

I think people that really set themselves by these inconsequential classes are limiting themselves.

My friendship group, all met at uni, includes people like me born to teenage working class parents, a few people who will inherit land and titles, one friends parents own a national supermarket chain and another is the child of an international rock star.

We all did the same degree course and all got the same jobs coming out of it. It’s not the 18th century anymore where you are stuck in your class however clever or talented you may be. I think its sad to be stuck in that mentality.

@jb7445 a lawyer would struggle to say they were WC. MC from a WC background is probably how I'd describe you.

@traumatisednoodle.
You DFIL sounds like he went completely off the rails.
I did hear something on radio that you Grandparents have a bigger influence on your outcome than your parents, ie if one generation (your parents) get it wrong then the GPs can generally keep the GC on track. However if the two generations have gone of track ie the GPs and the Parents it leaves little hope for the DC to pull themselves up.

@traumatisednoodle

I’m not so sure about ‘becoming WC from a MC background’ — if your parents grew up MC but had, say, lost all their money and for some reason had to take unskilled minimum-wage jobs so you had a relatively poor childhood, they would still be able to hand on their social and cultural capital to their children

I have 2 examples of this in our family. DFIL was born to an army general and a minor aristocrat. He had by the standards of the time (and now) a very upper middle class upbringing (nannies, public school, sailing, skiing). He didn't go to University but qualified as an accountant. He suffered from a gambling addiction and alcoholism which cost him his first marriage (to DMIL) and the family home. He returned home and was "set up" with a flat and a job , again he lost it all. At this point his DM rewrote her will so that although he had use of the inheritance he couldn't spend it and it would pass directly to his sons (my DH). He then remarried and had futher children but the will was not re-written. He died in Febuary living in a house that DH and DBIL own, on the state pension, begging us for money fairly frequently. His daughter from his second marriage has enjoyed no cultural capital, in fact she has had periods of significant poverty in her childhood, she will always need to work and his widow now has no property and no pension. I would say DSIL is working class.

That’s interesting (and sad). So, are you saying that by the time of his second marriage, along with all money/chance of a career etc being lost through his addictions, he’d also lost the social and cultural capital he’d grown up with — the knowledge, social confidence etc that comes with a privileged upbringing, elite education and so on?

@traumatisednoodle

I’m not so sure about ‘becoming WC from a MC background’ — if your parents grew up MC but had, say, lost all their money and for some reason had to take unskilled minimum-wage jobs so you had a relatively poor childhood, they would still be able to hand on their social and cultural capital to their children

I have 2 examples of this in our family. DFIL was born to an army general and a minor aristocrat. He had by the standards of the time (and now) a very upper middle class upbringing (nannies, public school, sailing, skiing). He didn't go to University but qualified as an accountant. He suffered from a gambling addiction and alcoholism which cost him his first marriage (to DMIL) and the family home. He returned home and was "set up" with a flat and a job , again he lost it all. At this point his DM rewrote her will so that although he had use of the inheritance he couldn't spend it and it would pass directly to his sons (my DH). He then remarried and had futher children but the will was not re-written. He died in Febuary living in a house that DH and DBIL own, on the state pension, begging us for money fairly frequently. His daughter from his second marriage has enjoyed no cultural capital, in fact she has had periods of significant poverty in her childhood, she will always need to work and his widow now has no property and no pension. I would say DSIL is working class.

Sorry, hit ‘post’ too soon. I suppose I think that if DH and I (WC by origin, but highly educated etc) lost all our money tomorrow), our DS would still grow up with parents who, despite being poor, would still have friends from lots of countries, lots of degrees, speak several languages, have lived in several countries, know their way around literature, music etc… We’d still have that to hand on to DS, even if there was no money.

Yes I'd say he'd lost his social confidence, he did retain a childhood friend who read at his funeral, he was knowledgable, but by the time DSIL was 8 or so there was no money for Theatre trips and she only went to museums when staying with her older half brothers. She spent much of her childhood in front of the TV, as is often the case his alcoholism worsened over her childhood. Her mother was and is worn out trying to manage DFIL addiction, work FT and had little left to give.

if your parents grew up MC but had, say, lost all their money and for some reason had to take unskilled minimum-wage jobs so you had a relatively poor childhood, they would still be able to hand on their social and cultural capital to their children.
I believe that is true.
Many people are posh and poor likewise some people common and rich, money doesn't guarantee social class climbing.

He was astranged from his sister and his first wife's family. If I had to say when they became part of the Precariat it would be at his mother's death.

He was astranged from his sister and his first wife's family. If I had to say when they became part of the Precariat it would be at his mother's death.
So sad that no-one saved that young girl from her horrible life when there was family who had the means towards helping her.

We honestly tried, we paid for dance classes, bought her clothes when she was with us (other end of the country so mainly holidays). But yes her lived experience was not pleasant, I actually offered for her to come and live with us when she was 15, she preferred to stay and support her mother- who I have to say is a saintly women.

I preferred to buy things for her (and we didn't have loads ourselves with 2 young children) then put money into that house as you knew it would be drunk away.:(

Another one DS's classmate (SS grammar school) very middle class. His DF hung himself on the boy's rope swing. The house had to sold, of course the DS had massive mental health issues, got into drugs, ended up dealing- sent to a juvenile detention centre ( for armed robbery). This was before GCSEs not sure how middle class he will end up.....

@traumatisednoodle I'm sure those things helped make a difference to her life.

Thanks she is fine really. But not as middle class as her half brothers or cousins.

The problem is that we talk about class as if nothing had changed since the 1930s. I don't think it means anything. Especially when supposedly middle class young people have higher levels of financial instability, find it harder to buy a property etc than supposedly working class people in professions like building. It's more about heritage and traditions than actual resource and privilege.

@Tippexy

I think the issue is that you have so many middle class people adamant that they are working class.

For example I have a family member, they have just sold their house for £500k and her husband earns six figures, but no, they are working class! I also know a couple of “working class” Professors who have about four degrees each 😂

That all applies to DH and I. We are definitely working class.

Personally I think any perceived difference might be due to education or exposure to wider education, and also exposure to MC or WC "norms" in terms of (for example) social behaviour, rather than finance.

I hate this talk of class :(

I come from a low income upbringing. Living in a rough council estate to teen parents. Both parents family’s none had gone onto further education etc. When I mentioned I would like to go to uni and load of that’s not for us. So frustratingly I didn’t but have worked hard and have a fairly ok career in IT and pay a mortgage on our home . My eldest has just gone to uni - my mother still saying why you sure it’s the right thing grhhhh

I don’t feel the need to fit into a class or be defined by it. I feel it can create limitations and I had to and still have to remove those walls. Within myself and others.
I have friends who are on paper upper class very well spoken, private education & when younger had a house in the country as well as London etc etc the money ran out. The sisters one is a teacher one is a nurse. Brother works as a manger of a supermarket. They are also a lot happier without the class system each doing a job they enjoy without the expectations.

The quicker we dump the idea of class - it’s meaningless and it’s another one of those Instagram life (fake)

@HarrietsChariot

YABU I'm afraid. Working class does indeed mean you are poor. If you are working and earn a comfortable amount, you are lower-middle class.

Working class means either on benefits or in low paid jobs, minimum wage and zero hours, that type of thing. You work to survive and just about get by.

There's the social aspect too of course, it's not just money. Certain working class people could never rise above lower-middle class, no matter what they earned. Others might have the right temperament to become middle class proper.

There's overlap and it's not a hard-and-fast rule.

I disagree. My DH's boss is a self made man. He comes from a WC background, left school with no qualifications but massive intelligence and common sense and worked his way from an office junior in the city running errands for posh boys to owning several companies in about 15 years. He owns many properties across the world and has a timeshare in a private jet. But he is still very much WC. He is still married to his childhood sweetheart and still has his east London accent. When he gets on the jet he reads the Daily Mirror and eats sausage sandwiches with ketchup. He didn't suddenly switch to a broadsheet and pesto once he made his first 5 million.

His now adult children are a different story, they have been raised with money and went to excellent boarding schools so are highly educated and very much MC. They seem to be very proud of him and all he has achieved.