2nd Met Police officer has been charged with rape

[Rinoachicken]

He worked in the same dept as WC.

It’s being very widely reported, except by the BBC.

AIBU to be sickened and wonder WHY the BBC are not reporting this?

Link: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

So, from my perspective, we do as much as we can to help the victims/survivors of rapes and obtain a successful conviction

If that's the case how come 99% of rapists get away with their crime? And why do y think the conviction rate is SO much lower than any other type of violent crime?

Priti Patel has announced a formal inquiry into the failures in the policing system that led Wayne Couzens to get away with so much.

This will be very interesting

case www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58804984

A 6 month enquiry.

They're hoping women will forget.

@Felix125

MarieIVanArkleStinks

Rape is not legal and never will be. There are loads of people in jail for rape following successful convictions for the offence

I agree that a 2% conviction rate is awful, but if we have a stand point in law of 'proving beyond reasonable doubt' I'm not sure how this conviction rate can be effectively elevated to a much higher percentage.

Other offences such as assaults etc will have other evidence to prove the conviction - CCTV, other witnesses BWV etc etc

Burglaries will have forensic evidence putting the suspect on scene.

Rape offences do not usually have this. Its often word-against-word as to the point of consent. And if its not enough to convict on, then generally there will not be enough to charge with.

How to change this - I don't know. Unless we lower the burden of proof and use 'balance of probabilities' as the bench mark.

But then you will always have the problem of the false accusations. And i know its really small, but it does exist.

From a police point of view - first responders to a rape (rape trained officer) will always believe the victims account. So we immediately look to obtain evidence (their account, seize clothing, medical samples etc). Then they will be put with a support network (who are brilliant). The incident is crimed and passed to and investigating team.

So, from my perspective, we do as much as we can to help the victims/survivors of rapes and obtain a successful conviction - from an emergency response point of view. But then you drop back into the problems of legally achieving this.

That’s a very rational argument, unlike some of the responses that have been made. If you think it’s ok to take away the presumption of innocence then please make the case - rationally.

@PicsInRed

A 6 month enquiry.

They're hoping women will forget.

Does the open case from the police officer in WC whatsapp group who is accused of rape need to close prior to the inquiry so as not to prejudice the case?

@skodadoda did you ever share your ideas for lowering the already very, very low number of false accusations?

Just seen this on social media, for anyone asking what can be done

Also, just seen this - 216,000 children abused by Catholic Priests in France since 1950

bbc.in/3uIZ3Qt?fbclid=IwAR3w5GCWGNAPloIMFz9AtCG13X3ogIfrR9xzkamECLfMIhHBGkFEa0MVDoA

Unfortunately not many convictions - @vivainsomnia - are these children lying too? Should we be really mindful that the priests may well be innocent? And does everyone agree that there's nothing further that can be done????

Or do we only make excuses and accusations when it's women, not children, who are abused?

@YourFinestPantaloons

Just seen this on social media, for anyone asking what can be done

That's interesting. The one thing that seems to be missing, and which would surely effect real cultural change, is 'replace male coppers with female coppers'.

It's very interesting that the handful of police that have posted here, such as @Felix125 have displayed very 'male' attitudes, even though they are presumably women.

I read on the BBC that 11 out of 43 police forces in Britain have independently started recording misogyny as a hate crime since 2016, and research has shown ‘shifts in attitudes’ as a result.

Pity then than Boris Johnson said this about making misogyny a crime:

"I think, to be perfectly frank, if you simply widen the scope of what you ask the police to do you'll just increase the problem. "What you need to do is get the police to focus on the very real crimes, the very real feeling of injustice and betrayal that many people feel."

Basically he’s saying that the everyday misogyny women face is not a ‘real’ crime. Even though misogyny is a spectrum from wolf whistling to rape and murder - so surely tackling it at the ‘lower’ end may help prevent things escalating?

Interesting also that his main concern seems to be that if you make misogyny a crime to en the police would be overwhelmed with reports.

So apparently the way to reduce crime is to…pretend it doesn’t exist by not reporting or recording it?

Link: Boris Johnson does not support making misogyny a hate crime www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58800328

Misogyny hate crime in Nottinghamshire gives 'shocking' results www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-44740362

Rather than changing the laws I think we should demand they get up to date on the rape accusations/prosecutions. So accused of rape - your up in front of the magistrate fast, also if you're accused it shoudl stay on your file for x years - there are so many rapes and sexual assaults that some men MUST be serial rapists but perhaps getting away with it due to lack of evidence. But if you get accused 5 times by different women then something would have to be done.

Rape is not legal and never will be. There are loads of people in jail for rape following successful convictions for the offence.

I agree that a 2% conviction rate is awful, but if we have a stand point in law of 'proving beyond reasonable doubt' I'm not sure how this conviction rate can be effectively elevated to a much higher percentage.

Your second paragraph directly contradicts the first. 'A 2% conviction rate is awful'. Your words. I would agree.

Directly above that you write 'there are loads of people in jail for rape following successful conviction'.

No, there are not. That's precisely the point I raised, the point with which you are apparently in direct agreement. So, which is it?

Incidentally, the precise words I used were de facto legal. I never said rape was legal. That's your own inventive spin.

Rape is a serious crime. Beyond reasonable doubt rather than a balance of probabilities is therefore a reasonable bench mark. What I thoroughly despise is the way the crime of rape is tried in court. The victim was wearing a thong. There was an exchange of text messages (as if that disqualifies her from saying 'no' at any point). You should try reading some of the threads on this site posted by victims of rape, on which patriarchy has done such a serious number that they're not even sure what they've suffered qualifies as rape, or that the benchmark must be low because other women have suffered worse.

Character assassinations on women in court are fair game during rape trials. If the defendant is guilty of similar, prior convictions, the jury is not allowed to know.

The truth is that the system is twisted, misogynistic, and stacked against women from the very first. And that's allowing for the vanishingly few cases that ever make it into a courtroom in the first place. It's woeful. It's inadequate. It needs addressing. And it's not just about supporting victims: it's about obtaining justice for them.

The fact that you apparently see it otherwise shows much about why women don't trust the police, and also shines a bright spotlight on the kind of misogynistic attitudes which pervade so many constabularies. Thank you for illuminating this.

@thedancingbear

It's very interesting that the handful of police that have posted here, such as @Felix125 have displayed very 'male' attitudes, even though they are presumably women.

Indeed. IME, some of the worst misogynists are other women. The difference, of course, being that they do less harm to other women because they don't rape and kill them.

No real point in waiting for the latest trial to end before any inquiry.

There's always another case.

@YourFinestPantaloons

So, from my perspective, we do as much as we can to help the victims/survivors of rapes and obtain a successful conviction

If that's the case how come 99% of rapists get away with their crime? And why do y think the conviction rate is SO much lower than any other type of violent crime?

".....I agree that a 2% conviction rate is awful, but if we have a stand point in law of 'proving beyond reasonable doubt' I'm not sure how this conviction rate can be effectively elevated to a much higher percentage.

Other offences such as assaults etc will have other evidence to prove the conviction - CCTV, other witnesses BWV etc etc

Burglaries will have forensic evidence putting the suspect on scene.

Rape offences do not usually have this. Its often word-against-word as to the point of consent. And if its not enough to convict on, then generally there will not be enough to charge with....."

thedancingbear

"....If this attitude is typical of serving police officers' attitude - 'it is what it is, we can't do better' - then we are fucked.

And a nice little side order of 'but women make false allegations too!'. Despite even CPS official figures showing that these are vanishingly rare.

So ignorant. So dismissive of women...."

So, what do you suggest - from a police point of view. Bearing in mind that the police's roll is to gather the evidence and present it to the prosecution body ie CPS?

How do you want me to increase the charge rate? Because I would genuinely love to have the conviction rate as high as i can get it.

False allegations do occur - it may be a difficult pill for you to swallow, but its true. Most don't go to a prosecution of 'making a false allegation' so CPS will not be aware of them. These will just be closed before they reach any part of CPS. We have had CCTV evidence proving things haven't happened, mobile phone recordings etc etc

I'm not ignorant or dismissive of women

Like i said - i would love to have the conviction rate as high as possible and get rapists and other such deviants off the streets and behind bars. Believe me, I have worked with survivors of rapes to know the devastation that it causes. I'm first responder to such incidents and have been for some time.

And just to stop any further confusion - I'm a male officer of 20+ years service and no where near London or the Met.

MarieIVanArkleStinks

".....Your second paragraph directly contradicts the first. 'A 2% conviction rate is awful'. Your words. I would agree.

Directly above that you write 'there are loads of people in jail for rape following successful conviction'.

No, there are not. That's precisely the point I raised, the point with which you are apparently in direct agreement. So, which is it?..."

They were about 3000 successful convictions in 2016 i believe, which have dropped to about 1000 last year. So presumably, most of them will still be behind bars.

So that's still a lot of people - but its still too low when you compare it to its conviction rate.

The rest of what happens at court is beyond what the police have any control over.

What the police could do is not disclose incriminating evidence so we have more chance of getting a conviction - but isn't that going against the law? The police investigation has to be open and impartial to both sides - so that any evidence that is brought to light is presented to the court. Its then up to the court through legal argument to include or dismiss the evidence as relevant or not.

Or do you think that the police should not do that?
Should we 'hide' evidence that might be damaging to the prosecution case?
Should we ignore evidence that the suspect highlights to us?

You could have an argument to say we need stronger CPS lawyers to challenge private barristers during legal argument at court as to what is admissible or not. I would firmly agree to that - so that the fact the victim was wearing a thong is dismissed or previous text messages are dismissed if they are not relevant.

@Spiindoctor

Rather than changing the laws I think we should demand they get up to date on the rape accusations/prosecutions. So accused of rape - your up in front of the magistrate fast, also if you're accused it shoudl stay on your file for x years - there are so many rapes and sexual assaults that some men MUST be serial rapists but perhaps getting away with it due to lack of evidence. But if you get accused 5 times by different women then something would have to be done.

But you still need some sort of evidence to present to the court, to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the suspect is guilty.

So, if he has been found not guilty five previous times due to insufficient evidence - what happens on the sixth time?

I agree with you - that there is no smoke without fire and if he has had 5 accusations then there must be something there - but the legal system wont see it that way.

It's ok Felix, you didn't have to tell us you were a male officer.

@Felix125

thedancingbear

"....If this attitude is typical of serving police officers' attitude - 'it is what it is, we can't do better' - then we are fucked.

And a nice little side order of 'but women make false allegations too!'. Despite even CPS official figures showing that these are vanishingly rare.

So ignorant. So dismissive of women...."

So, what do you suggest - from a police point of view. Bearing in mind that the police's roll is to gather the evidence and present it to the prosecution body ie CPS?

How do you want me to increase the charge rate? Because I would genuinely love to have the conviction rate as high as i can get it.

False allegations do occur - it may be a difficult pill for you to swallow, but its true. Most don't go to a prosecution of 'making a false allegation' so CPS will not be aware of them. These will just be closed before they reach any part of CPS. We have had CCTV evidence proving things haven't happened, mobile phone recordings etc etc

I'm not ignorant or dismissive of women

Like i said - i would love to have the conviction rate as high as possible and get rapists and other such deviants off the streets and behind bars. Believe me, I have worked with survivors of rapes to know the devastation that it causes. I'm first responder to such incidents and have been for some time.

And just to stop any further confusion - I'm a male officer of 20+ years service and no where near London or the Met.

Someone talking sense at last

@Namechangeforthis88

I'm uncomfortable with the assumption that all police officers are complicit and turning a blind eye to rampant racism and misogyny. My DH is a police officer and specialises in investigating hate crime and domestic violence. When his work has put people behind bars for homophobic hate crime and helped women escape their abusers, his colleagues have celebrated his success. Despite not specialising in investigating rape, one of his cases turned into a rape case and the suspect was convicted and sentenced to prison. I told him he must have done a great job, and he said the victims did a great job, and handled giving evidence really well.

He says he really hasn't experienced the toxic culture being spoken about. He used to work in the Met.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but please don't assume that all police officers are seeing and hearing evidence of the problem and ignoring it.

I worked in prisons way back and I know what a toxic culture looks like from personal experience.

Agree

3000 rape convictions a year is not "lots". Down to 1000 = de facto legal as MarieIVanArkleStinks says. It's shameful.

CCTV can prove someone was in the vicinity for burglary and lead to convictions but CCTV showing the accused rapist of being in the same place as the victim have been useless in the case of a PP on this thread @Felix125

Also I've heard of rape victims being treated awfully by attending officers so it's not always the lovely, kind, trained up PC that shows up. Sometimes it's someone that asks pointed questions and shows little sympathy, making it painfully obvious that they disbelieve the victim or that they somehow brought it on themselves.

There's absolutely a reason why many women don't report sexual assaults. We all know this already, don't try and tell us it's not relevant or valid.

It's clear to me and to many other women I'm sure that the low conviction rate, and everything leading up to that for that matter, are part and parcel of the systematic misogyny that pervades the police, judiciary and subsequently the court proceedings and outcomes.

@Namechangeforthis88 what’s the worst thing he ever saw a colleague do?

[quote YourFinestPantaloons]This is a great article entitled Wayne Couzens is a not an anomaly.

I suggest the apologists read it, it summarises very well how rife this toxic culture is within the Met police

tribunemag.co.uk/2021/10/wayne-couzens-is-not-an-anomaly/[/quote]
Everyone really should read it.