2nd Met Police officer has been charged with rape

[Rinoachicken]

He worked in the same dept as WC.

It’s being very widely reported, except by the BBC.

AIBU to be sickened and wonder WHY the BBC are not reporting this?

Link: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

@mustlovegin

seeing as the statistics tell us false rape allegations are extremely rare, but rape convictions are low

You cannot use statistics to ascertain whether any individual is guilty or not

Jesus wept. Head. Brick wall.

Read this slowly.

Rapes are common. Almost all rapists get away with their crime. Almost no people falsely accuse men of rape. The burden of proof has to be ridiculously high to secure a charge on someone. All of these sentences are factual.

Therefore going on likelihoods and probabilities, based on the world we live in - and the rape culture we sadly live with - in all likelihood, the woman in this case is telling the truth.

Once again, your vile apologist attitude can fuck right off. This is a thread about women being raped. 4chan is over there if you want to play handmaiden

[quote happystrummer]click the link on this tweet. Its a document of all the police officers charged, what they were charged for and the outcome over the last decade or so. It's really shocking. It's clearly not a few bad apples

twitter.com/mikewhoatv/status/1443541033002930178[/quote]
Horrendous

[quote Hdhdjejdj]@Felix125 He was arrested on the 2nd October. He was charged on the 3rd October. Check your facts.[/quote]
I did.

He was arrested ages ago - formerly suspended on 2nd October and charged on 3rd October

It doesn't give the date of arrest - just the date of suspension & charge

The vetting of WC was appallingly lax, especially so given that he was in an armed role.

For a role where an officer is expected to not only carry a gun but also use it I would expect the standards to be extremely high. Vetting for that role should be intrusive.

Even the fairly cursory checks such as are used to get a credit card would have revealed he was massively in debt. He was using recreational drugs. We expect our sports men and women to be clean. Surely routine drug testing should be part of a continuous vetting programme.

Routine, continuous vetting wont see into an officer's soul but it will help to identify officers who are starting to slide off the rails. That doesnt mean that an officer who is starting to slide should be automatically fired but it should mean that officer has to start addressing their problems.

Make vetting normal and continuous. Make personal standards of behaviour something any officer can call into question. It will be expensive to set such things up but once in place they will reap rewards. Fewer officers will find themselves forced out through a toxic workplace. The officers who cant maintain personal and professional standards are the ones you want to leave anyway.

Almost no people falsely accuse men of rape

Oh, that’s ok then. Actually not true.

@skodadoda

Almost no people falsely accuse men of rape

Oh, that’s ok then. Actually not true.

It is true. And it is actually ok - I’d be absolutely delighted if the stats for rape were as low as for false accusations. I actually can’t see how you could improve those numbers for false accusations, what with them already being so, so low - what’s your suggestion for 0% false accusations?

I forgot he had the debt and drugs Gnome. I think they need to identify “red flags” like this and if they’re serious they will employ specialists to do this job.

Unfortunately from people I know in the police it’s very much “bums on seats” which is reflected in the single patrol attitude-they don’t see their workforce as human; they just want numbers. It goes back to money.

Companies I’ve worked for, the way they subtly impose their values is through regular training/team building days and actually giving your staff skills and qualifications. The private sector is better at this IME.

Honestly from what I’ve seen, large police forces treat their basic uniformed officers like shit; they aren’t valued. It’s just a factory.

@skodadoda

Almost no people falsely accuse men of rape

Oh, that’s ok then. Actually not true.

It is true. I posted a source up thread from the CPS. Unless you can present me with actual facts that state otherwise, a source that's more reliable than the body that prosecutes people?

Also I didn't say it was 'ok', I'm saying it isn't even close to being a societal problem. Unlike rape, which is basically a pandemic.

The stupid thing is that improving routine vetting, improving basic work culture will reduce turnover of officers. That will be a cost saving.

If you can get to a culture where a junior constable can say to a sergeant 'that was sexist/racist/homophobic' and know that there wont be risk to themselves then turnover, especially of female, BAME, gay officers will reduce.

It wont mean that the sexism/racism/homophobia will cease to exist but the majority of officers will be far less desensitised to it. The true bad apples will be far more visible.

Genuinely - I don't understand why people get involved with 'false allegations ruin lives' types.

You can't argue with them, they're not interested in facts or information. I've seen enough interactions to know that they are not, on the whole, here in good faith. There is zero chance of persuading from their 'views' because by and large they don't really hold them. They are just here to upset and harass (other?) women.

If you just ignore them, and don't allow them to derail the discussion, they scuttle back under their rocks on Reddit or wherever, soon enough.

The thing is, being a police officer is quite an important job but this isn’t reflected in the pay or the treatment of officers.

Chris Rock’s brilliant quote attached.

We kind of revere police and at the same time we slag them off but they are just human beings like us.

@Siameasy

The thing is, being a police officer is quite an important job but this isn’t reflected in the pay or the treatment of officers.

Chris Rock’s brilliant quote attached.

We kind of revere police and at the same time we slag them off but they are just human beings like us.

They’re not just like us though - they’ve got a huge amount of power and influence that the general public doesn’t have. I don’t think it’s a bit ask to make sure they don’t break the law, any of it - speeding? Drunk and disorderly? Punched someone once? - and you’re out, no pension. I bet they’d manage to reign in the racist WhatsApps then xx

It is true. I posted a source up thread from the CPS. Unless you can present me with actual facts that state otherwise, a source that's more reliable than the body that prosecutes people?

Also I didn't say it was 'ok', I'm saying it isn't even close to being a societal problem. Unlike rape, which is basically a pandemic.

Truths. Unassailable statistics. And still we see persistence in the face of all evidence to the contrary from the apologists.

It's the apologists to whom I want to address my response: what the ever-loving fuck is the matter with you people? Where do you get off posting demonstrable lies to perpetuate the myth that when men abuse it must be the women who are lying? Why are you so determined to place the blame for the woeful state of affairs that, as the PP I quoted above makes frighteningly clear, rape is de facto legal, as rapists are practically untouchable?

It's because of attitudes like yours that I failed to get a conviction or even a charge brought against my rapists (yes, there was more than one).

This is the question I'd most like to see an answer to, as not one of the apologists to whom I've posed it has ever given one.

Who stands to gain by keeping the status quo precisely as it is? And why are YOU so keen to ensure that happens?

'place the blame on women', the above should read.

They are like us. They’re not a different type of human. We are a herd species. It’s a big mistake to treat them like super heroes. As I said, it’s an important job and requires the right person but with the “bums on seats” attitude you get out what you put in

Afaik they don’t even interview anymore? Perhaps someone can clarify?

We see the sexist etc behaviour often in male-dominated environments - the army and the fire service are the same but I’ve seen it in the private sector too. It’s a man problem compounded by the fact that police have authority so it has more potential to do damage to the public

Genuinely - I don't understand why people get involved with 'false allegations ruin lives' types.

You can't argue with them, they're not interested in facts or information. I've seen enough interactions to know that they are not, on the whole, here in good faith. There is zero chance of persuading from their 'views' because by and large they don't really hold them. They are just here to upset and harass (other?) women.

True. I'll share something with you here. One such person has incessantly stalked and harassed me around this site, because I talk openly of my experiences at the hands of men, have never changed my screen handle, and won't be fucking well intimidated.

Eventually MNHQ cottoned onto what they were doing and, I'm pleased to say, banned this person. They'd bob up again in an alternative screen name and instantly out themselves by bringing up every other occasion they'd had a hate-filled rant at me. You know the sort of language. Man-hater. Harpy. And every now and again these rants would be punctuated by the most sickly-sentimental statements of how sorry they were about what had happened to me. I don't need sympathy, and certainly not from arseholes like this.

I ignored them, and as often happens with these types, they started to go too far, and MN kicked them off. No doubt back to Reddit and/or the manosphere (although they did claim to be female, and given the prevalence of NAMALT on this site I can well believe it).

It isn't only the invalidating of female victims' experiences that goes on on this site. Some of us have been actively harassed.

Your guess is as good as mine as to why.

PS. Rape ruins lives far more than a false allegation possibly could. It boils my piss (to coin a MN phrase) that an accusation of rape is deemed worse than actually BEING raped.

I have cPTSD and wrote off nearly 10 grand in therapy, into my forties and many years after the accumulative events that left me with the condition, because I got too sick to function after enduring sexual harassment and stalking at work and didn't have a clue what the hell was wrong with me.

There is a one-word answer: trauma.

I think speeding is a bit harsh to lose your job and pension Pumper. I’m pretty sure an officer convicted of an assault would be sacked these days?
In any case they would never lose their own pension contributions (quite significant compared to some other pensions) and what they would’ve made had they instead invested that contribution elsewhere would have to be accounted for.

@Siameasy

They are like us. They’re not a different type of human. We are a herd species. It’s a big mistake to treat them like super heroes. As I said, it’s an important job and requires the right person but with the “bums on seats” attitude you get out what you put in

Afaik they don’t even interview anymore? Perhaps someone can clarify?

We see the sexist etc behaviour often in male-dominated environments - the army and the fire service are the same but I’ve seen it in the private sector too. It’s a man problem compounded by the fact that police have authority so it has more potential to do damage to the public

Except the police then has the authority to act on that sexist behaviour. So we need them to be better than that, and they’re not.

@Siameasy

I think speeding is a bit harsh to lose your job and pension Pumper. I’m pretty sure an officer convicted of an assault would be sacked these days? In any case they would never lose their own pension contributions (quite significant compared to some other pensions) and what they would’ve made had they instead invested that contribution elsewhere would have to be accounted for.

It is harsh. Too bad.

Pumper It’s IMO disproportionate; your response is spiteful and isn’t going to happen anyway because any decent system set up to improve behaviour does not rely on arbitrary punishments.

They’re human beings like us. You and I could apply tomorrow if we wanted to. The macho culture and men sticking together does not exist solely within the police and the police didn’t invent it. It’s everywhere.

It’s comfortable for people to think “oh I would never do XYZ, I would say something, oh those horrible officers etc etc”. That’s dangerous because you are treating them as “other”. If we treat them as “non-human but oh so special human” guess how they’ll treat the public.

It’s a unique and broad job for which many forces have been happy to recruit any old nodding donkey rather than invest in training and getting the right person.

@Siameasy

Pumper It’s IMO disproportionate; your response is spiteful and isn’t going to happen anyway because any decent system set up to improve behaviour does not rely on arbitrary punishments.

They’re human beings like us. You and I could apply tomorrow if we wanted to. The macho culture and men sticking together does not exist solely within the police and the police didn’t invent it. It’s everywhere.

It’s comfortable for people to think “oh I would never do XYZ, I would say something, oh those horrible officers etc etc”. That’s dangerous because you are treating them as “other”. If we treat them as “non-human but oh so special human” guess how they’ll treat the public.

It’s a unique and broad job for which many forces have been happy to recruit any old nodding donkey rather than invest in training and getting the right person.

I’m not arguing that it’s not everywhere - it is. But the police is a very specific type of profession with a huge amount of power that no other profession has. That’s why they need to be so far above it that the very idea they’d send a racist WhatsApp is absolutely abhorrent- not only to the general public but to every single one of their colleagues.

I’d rather be spiteful than a rape apologist, which is a overwhelmingly the narrative of the police force this week.

@Siameasy

Pumper It’s IMO disproportionate; your response is spiteful and isn’t going to happen anyway because any decent system set up to improve behaviour does not rely on arbitrary punishments.

They’re human beings like us. You and I could apply tomorrow if we wanted to. The macho culture and men sticking together does not exist solely within the police and the police didn’t invent it. It’s everywhere.

It’s comfortable for people to think “oh I would never do XYZ, I would say something, oh those horrible officers etc etc”. That’s dangerous because you are treating them as “other”. If we treat them as “non-human but oh so special human” guess how they’ll treat the public.

It’s a unique and broad job for which many forces have been happy to recruit any old nodding donkey rather than invest in training and getting the right person.

And I’ve already said this on here this week but I’m genuinely considering joining the police. I’d love my job being so cosseted, if I so much as raised my voice to one of the people I have authority over, I’d be in a lot of trouble. Plus my pension is shit.

MarieIVanArkleStinks

Rape is not legal and never will be. There are loads of people in jail for rape following successful convictions for the offence

I agree that a 2% conviction rate is awful, but if we have a stand point in law of 'proving beyond reasonable doubt' I'm not sure how this conviction rate can be effectively elevated to a much higher percentage.

Other offences such as assaults etc will have other evidence to prove the conviction - CCTV, other witnesses BWV etc etc

Burglaries will have forensic evidence putting the suspect on scene.

Rape offences do not usually have this. Its often word-against-word as to the point of consent. And if its not enough to convict on, then generally there will not be enough to charge with.

How to change this - I don't know. Unless we lower the burden of proof and use 'balance of probabilities' as the bench mark.

But then you will always have the problem of the false accusations. And i know its really small, but it does exist.

From a police point of view - first responders to a rape (rape trained officer) will always believe the victims account. So we immediately look to obtain evidence (their account, seize clothing, medical samples etc). Then they will be put with a support network (who are brilliant). The incident is crimed and passed to and investigating team.

So, from my perspective, we do as much as we can to help the victims/survivors of rapes and obtain a successful conviction - from an emergency response point of view. But then you drop back into the problems of legally achieving this.

@Felix125

MarieIVanArkleStinks

Rape is not legal and never will be. There are loads of people in jail for rape following successful convictions for the offence

I agree that a 2% conviction rate is awful, but if we have a stand point in law of 'proving beyond reasonable doubt' I'm not sure how this conviction rate can be effectively elevated to a much higher percentage.

Other offences such as assaults etc will have other evidence to prove the conviction - CCTV, other witnesses BWV etc etc

Burglaries will have forensic evidence putting the suspect on scene.

Rape offences do not usually have this. Its often word-against-word as to the point of consent. And if its not enough to convict on, then generally there will not be enough to charge with.

How to change this - I don't know. Unless we lower the burden of proof and use 'balance of probabilities' as the bench mark.

But then you will always have the problem of the false accusations. And i know its really small, but it does exist.

From a police point of view - first responders to a rape (rape trained officer) will always believe the victims account. So we immediately look to obtain evidence (their account, seize clothing, medical samples etc). Then they will be put with a support network (who are brilliant). The incident is crimed and passed to and investigating team.

So, from my perspective, we do as much as we can to help the victims/survivors of rapes and obtain a successful conviction - from an emergency response point of view. But then you drop back into the problems of legally achieving this.

If this attitude is typical of serving police officers' attitude - 'it is what it is, we can't do better' - then we are fucked.

And a nice little side order of 'but women make false allegations too!'. Despite even CPS official figures showing that these are vanishingly rare.

So ignorant. So dismissive of women.