15yr old girl died of covid

[Louiselady500]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-58772671

Will this make people reconsider allowing their teenagers to have the vaccine.
Yes or No?

It’s made me think a lot about it even though my child isn’t old enough to be vaccinated yet. If the times comes I think I will be much more convinced than I maybe was before.

It boggles the mind some people are more afraid of the vaccine than covid. Yep. No sense at all.

If there had been 10 deaths from fires in schools which had 0 mitigations or fire safety measures in the last month - would we say that was ok? To have schools with no fire doors, no fire extinguishers, no risk assessment? And deaths happening as a result?

Because that''s schools with covid right now.

I felt the risk assessment and mitigation was somewhat lacking last year but at least there was something - and obviously it worked because the rates of infection were lower.

My 17 year old has just had his first jab. He wavered as was worried about side-effects, but he’s going to be 18 early next year and not being vaccinated will impact him for travel etc and having to SI if he’s a contact. (He isolated about 4 times in 18 months, once from me and 3 x from school last academic year, plus all the lockdowns etc.)
I understand that the risk of myocarditis is higher from actual Covid rather than Pfizer, and also milder if you get it from the jab.
There’s always going to be risks either way.
Not sure if I would’ve got my younger child jabbed, but thankfully I didn’t have to make that choice. We gave DS a choice, although he knew that we’d rather he had it (so far all ok - bit of dizziness that night but nothing else).

Ps: to add, ds got horrible flu a couple of years ago. It even scared me how ill he was - couldn’t be left on his own (aged 15) so dh and I muddled along w time off etc. He was off school for over a week. I would hate him to go through that again. He lost about 10lbs too and was skinny to begin with.

The assessment by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) is that the health benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harm

But you understand that assessment didn’t just consider the safety of the vaccine in children v the safety of them catching Covid.

@REDHERO

It boggles the mind some people are more afraid of the vaccine than covid. Yep. No sense at all.

Couldn't agree more.

That’s really sad .

Sounds like she died from myocarditis, which the vaccine also has been known to cause ( even if there is a low probability)? Who is to say she wouldn’t have caught that from the vaccination? Heartbreaking

@REDHERO

It boggles the mind some people are more afraid of the vaccine than covid. Yep. No sense at all.

And for some of us on the other side of the debate, it boggles the mind that you would be more afraid of covid than the vaccine.

The long term data for the vaccines DOES NOT EXIST yet, so to say that people have no sense is not accurate at all. We could say the same about your side.

But the point I'm trying to make is that we all feel the same, but we're on the other side. No side has been proven wrong or right yet. This pandemic isn't over. The long term data does not exist. We are all making the decisions that we feel are the best ones. Simple as that.

@HikingforScenery

That’s really sad .

Sounds like she died from myocarditis, which the vaccine also has been known to cause ( even if there is a low probability)? Who is to say she wouldn’t have caught that from the vaccination? Heartbreaking

Well I think the evidence suggests that the risk of myocarditis is lower (and less severe) with vaccination.

If we'd kept cases low and kept (and improved) mitigations in schools then perhaps she might not have caught covid OR needed the vaccine.

There is a third way here.

@HikingforScenery

That’s really sad .

Sounds like she died from myocarditis, which the vaccine also has been known to cause ( even if there is a low probability)? Who is to say she wouldn’t have caught that from the vaccination? Heartbreaking

From the BBC article linked in the OP

Preliminary results after she was admitted to hospital indicated Jorja had Covid myocarditis, heart inflammation caused by the virus.

@MissConductUS

I don't think that covid myocarditis is an official condition? Surely it is just myocarditis no matter what has caused it?

[quote user1481840227]@MissConductUS

I don't think that covid myocarditis is an official condition? Surely it is just myocarditis no matter what has caused it?[/quote]
Myocarditis just means an inflamed heart and can have different causes, just as pneumonia refers to inflammation of the lungs without specifying a cause. Pneumonia, for example, can be viral or bacterial. If the hospital attributed it to the virus it's likely the result of a serological exam of a tissue sample from the heart. That wouldn't be definitive, but it would establish a high probability of the cause.

The long term data for the vaccines DOES NOT EXIST yet, so to say that people have no sense is not accurate at all. We could say the same about your side.

So do you think we should have waited for five or ten years before we started vaccinating people and just surveilled the clinical trial participants? Do you have any idea how many unnecessary deaths that would have led to?

The problem is that there's no escaping risk in this situation and our brains are wired to do nothing in the face of imperfect information. But by taking your chances with the virus you've accepted a larger risk to avoid, through inaction, a smaller risk. It's like staying in a burning building hoping the fire department will put out the fire before it reaches you.

@MissConductUS

The long term data for the vaccines DOES NOT EXIST yet, so to say that people have no sense is not accurate at all. We could say the same about your side.

So do you think we should have waited for five or ten years before we started vaccinating people and just surveilled the clinical trial participants? Do you have any idea how many unnecessary deaths that would have led to?

The problem is that there's no escaping risk in this situation and our brains are wired to do nothing in the face of imperfect information. But by taking your chances with the virus you've accepted a larger risk to avoid, through inaction, a smaller risk. It's like staying in a burning building hoping the fire department will put out the fire before it reaches you.

@MissConductUS

I'm not necessarily saying that we should have waited 5-10 years before offering the vaccination to people, a lot of people wanted to take it after all!!
I'm just saying that people who want to wait for X amount of years shouldn't be bullied into it or talked down to like they're idiots because they want to wait and they certainly shouldn't be coerced into taking it by not being allowed to participate in certain parts of life until they get the vaccine.

It is arrogant to assume that taking the vaccine is the correct decision because as I said the long term data does not exist yet.

I believe in choice...and I believe that the governments and vaccine manufacturers should be more transparent and honest.

I refused the swine flu jab while pregnant for the same reason that I'm refusing this one, the lack of long term data. I know a woman who suffered severe vaccine injury from the swine flu jab and I've witnessed the effects it has had on her so of course I am reluctant to take this jab or let my children have it.

Your metaphor isn't really accurate, it's more like there's a burning building and if you go one through one door you could burn to death and if you go the other way you could die from smoke inhalation.

There are risks both ways and we all should get to choose for ourselves what to do.

Fgs just get your bloody kids vaccinated. And if you are too cowardly to take that decision then at least butt out of their lives so they can access some real data and make an informed decision to have it independently, without you whimpering in the background.

Fgs just get your bloody kids vaccinated. And if you are too cowardly to take that decision then at least butt out of their lives so they can access some real data and make an informed decision to have it independently, without you whimpering in the background.

Our school has mitigations - masks, distancing, sterilising, windows open. The numbers are still sky high. Probably because parents and older siblings are going to concerts and events and overall acting as though Covid no longer exists.

The government and the schools have been clear vaccinations for children is prompted by a desire to have continuity of education. But that push for continuity is what's causing the problem.

DCs are being sent to school when their siblings are positive. Three days later, they test positive. The children they sit beside no longer have to isolate because suddenly they're no longer contacts. Then they test positive, take it home to their families.

The fallacy that vaccinations have changed the definition of contacts is pushing the numbers through the roof and putting children and vulnerable adults at risk.

We're in contact with medical professionals because of underlying conditions. They're bemused that so many adults are acting as though Covid transmission has changed just because the government changed the rules regarding contacts. They're also gearing up for the numbers to keep rising because that's what happens when the government tells contacts to go out to work or into class and adults pretend they don't understand they're putting people at risk.

@ all user1481840227 And for some of us on the other side of the debate, it boggles the mind that you would be more afraid of covid than the vaccine.

I will repeat, "People who are not fully vaccinated are eight times more likely to test positive, 41 times more likely to be hospitalized, and 57 times more likely to die compared to people who are vaccinated."

We know that most reactions to vaccines (we have decades of historical data) are immediate, not longterm.

But even if you think there might be long-term effects, we also have no idea what the long-term effects of catching covid are, let alone covid that is so bad you're hospitalized.

And once more, for the people at the back, you are 57 times more likely to die of covid if you are unvaccinated. This is real data, taken from Seattle, playing out in real time.

I am far more afraid of covid than the vaccine.

I saw this and it's utterly heartbreaking 💔 I feel so sorry for this young girls family and friends there really are no words 😶 at a time like this but hopefully those who for whatever reasons don't want their kids vaccinated will have a "re-think" as no family should have to go thru this.

@user1481840227

What exactly are you scared of , what long term effect scares you so much that you ignore all the data after millions of people have been vaccinated.

From a teens point of view, if they remain unvaccinated, they are unlikely to be very ill if they get covid. They are quite unlikely to get long covid.
If they have the vaccine, they may still get covid, they are less likely to get very ill if they get covid, but they weren’t likely to get very ill anyway. They may still get long covid. But they also may face short term side effects of the vaccine and don’t know what the long term consequences will be, although again I think they’re unlikely.
They’re only being offered 1 dose, so they don’t get the benefits of being classed as fully vaccinated such as easier travel to some countries.

My teens have chosen not to have the vaccine and I can understand why. Equally I wouldn’t be concerned if they chose to have it.

They have both been exposed to covid, one had close contact with 3 people that all tested positive a couple of days after spending a week with them and never got it. My kids don’t think they won’t catch it but they don’t think it’s inevitable that they will.

@myheartskippedabeat

I saw this and it's utterly heartbreaking 💔 I feel so sorry for this young girls family and friends there really are no words 😶 at a time like this but hopefully those who for whatever reasons don't want their kids vaccinated will have a "re-think" as no family should have to go thru this.

I agree it's heartbreaking but I think what's heartbreaking is the lack of mitigations in schools - ventilation, air filtration at the very least. Isolation of close contacts. All when children have not been able to get the vaccine even if they wanted to.

Jorja was due to be vaccinated the day she died - that's early, most children around here don't get the chance until at the earliest mid October. And it's 3 weeks from vaccination until they get any protection - all the while they're in covid petri dishes with no mitigations and no isolation of close contacts.

Jorja never had the chance to be vaccinated, she was going to, but because the JCVI delayed for what seems to be mainly political reasons she didn't have the choice. If she'd had the choice things could have been different.

No-one has to have the vaccine, it's a choice and it should be a free one (i'm not a fan of vaccine passports for this reason).

I think it's criminal they denied parents and children that choice over the summer before schools went back at a time when most countries were allowing families that choice.

Essentially they were denying parents and children 'personal responsibility' because how can you take responsibility when you have no choices to make?

They sent kids back into environments with no mitigations at all without the option of taking up the vaccine knowing full well that tragedies like this were very likely as a result. Doctors in other countries have been talking about protecting their children, and politicians agreeing, and here we have a minority of the tory party pushing for 'back to normal' with no mitigations at all, for purely political reasons.

They are responsible.

Suggesting that the decision is a no brainer is just offensive and off-putting. The decision is finely balanced - that was recognised by the JCVI. Nor is all the research one way. I have read the new scientist research. But I have also read the report that stated that the risk of myocarditis is 3.7-6.1 higher than the risk of hospitalisation in boys aged 12-15.

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v1

It is extremely difficult to make a decision when there is such conflicting information and the suggestion that those parents who chose to wait have not done their “research” is simply untrue.

Sorry - that should be risk of myocarditis after the vaccine is 3.7-6.1 higher.

Mycarditis caused by vacc can be treated at home with antibiotics or resolve without treatment. So thats like comparing apples and oranges. What % of people will need treatmeny of some kind from covid compared of treatmeny from Vacc