Cultural appropriation...how bad is it?

[malificent7]

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?
I love african wax print fabric but don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation if i wear a bit of it. I also own sari fabric clothes.

Aibu to ask mn who may or may not be from different ethnic backgrounds would they consider Rhianna or my behaviour inappropriate and what constitutes real cultural appropriation?

This is not a racist thread as dd is mixed race.

@Loveshelly I believe anyone can wear Royal Stewart but otherwise you should wear your Clan tartan, IF you are Scottish.
Not getting into the cultural Appropriation debate though.

@Jaxhog There's an article by an academic feminist in which she argues if blackface is rightly frowned upon then drag should be too as it is essentially 'woman-face'. There's reaching and then there's that.

@Fimofriend

But braided hair and cornrows have been used by white people in Europe for more than a thousand years. Vikings did it. Why is it suddenly a black thing? Because people are uneducated and know nothing about history! That's why. But of course I am not allowed to have an opinion about this as this is Mumsnet where I was previously told I couldn't possibly have been the victim of racism as I am white. The small detail that the people who called me the N-word obviously didn't see me as white doesn't matter in the competition about being most woke. Newsflash: It is not woke to tell people who have experienced racism that it couldn't possibly have happened because they "don't qualify".

Well if she'd worn a tunic, a horned hat and blue contacts, I don't think anyone would mind, but the fact that in RECENT history, cornrows have been used by black people to protect a hair type dominant in their communities, they have naturally have a cultural significance to those groups.

Thing is I personally don't take issue with Alice from accounts eating plantain or doing whatever she likes with her hair. Where I do is when Jamie Oliver for example invents 'jerk rice'.

There is no blanket answer. Everyone will think differently of all races.
Indian people ive found as a whole, generally love non Indians embracing all parts of their culture from wearing bindis, eating their food (whether it had been ‘whitewashed’ or not), wearing saris.
Black people less so. But everyone will be different

I think the term cultural appropriation has become too wide now. If you are wearing something in a mocking way that is significant to a culture - not OK. If you are a huge company taking a traditional pattern from a tribe and making huge profit from it with no discussion with that tribe - not OK.

No one really knows though if someone is appreciating or appropriating a culture and who's to judge? I wear Fisherman's pants I got when I volunteered for a few months in Thailand - do I 'qualify' for appreciation? When I wear them in the UK no one knows the backstory. What if I went to India for a week and bought a sari? At what point do you get appreciation status?

I think people should aim to educate if they think something is being appropriated rather than appreciated by an individual rather than the judging and shaming that goes on (often by other white people). But educating doesn't make you feel superior in the way judging and shaming does so....

I was always told Flower of Scotland was the tartan for anyone to wear - my grandparents bought my non Scottish friend a kilt in this when she came to stay. Otoh we went to a wedding of English people where they chose my family tartan and we were all told not to wear it. That was a bit weird although to be fair I wouldn’t have done anyway.

That’s kind of my point @BananaPB.

It's not. Wear what you like.

I once spoke to a black person, therefore I cannot be racist.

@MiddlesexGirl - by just explaining and sharing with people where the salwar kameez is from, why you like it, etc. Showing your appreciation for another culture is a beautiful thing to do. Its when people claim it as their own and get praise for it that originators don't that's the issue.

“Cultural appropriation” is yet another way of telling people which box they should be sat in and that they should not stray outside their box, attempt any sort of integration. You know what, every culture that has existed ever is an amalgamation of aspects of other cultures separated by time and geography.

@Tal45 all the education you need is just a Google search away if you are really interested

@Ibelieveinghosts it absolutely isn't, all you need to do is do a bit of research and speak to lots of different types of people. If you are determined to believe otherwise, that's a different matter.

Rihanna is black, so who is doing the cultural appropriation? I’m not sure what the criticism is, more info would be useful. That a black person shouldn’t braid a white person’s hair, or that the white person shouldn’t allow their hair to be braided by a black person?

I love African waxprint as i love the funky pattern but i also have a bit of knowledge anout its history snd i understand that much of it is produced in the Netherlands.

Wear what you want to, do your hair how you want to, eat the food that you want to, do the hobbies you want to; and if anyone tells you any different or that you shouldn't be doing them for some spurious reaching reason, tell them to fuck off and mind their own businesses.

I'm kind of with @Tal45 on this - there are degrees that are clearly disrespectful or even insulting, or blatant profiteering off less privileged groups.

I have no time for the 'what about black people straigtening and bleaching their hair' arguments, because that's not the point, the point is, as others have said, cultural imagery/fashion being looked down on among the less privileged group among whom it orginated but suddenly cool and acceptable when adopted by the privileged.

I think that hairstyles do have rather more shades of grey (no pun intended) as many have origins in multiple places and also some white people do have extremely curly hair that looks afro textured when grown out in its natural state (not uncommon among my fellow Jews, for example) and they're not culturally appropriating, that's what their hair is like when it's long.

I find this subject fascinating. I get that it’s frustrating that only certain parts of cultures are celebrated whilst others are ignored or downright rejected. But who is to judge what is appropriation and what is appreciation (not including mockery or generally offensive acts here)?

When YOU become the one who gets to judge/police what’s appropriation you can also ending up hurting biracial people who feel they can’t express their culture because they look too white etc. You only have to look at the backlash with Pete Wentz’s cornrows to see how ignorant and insensitive people can be all because they want to be seen as morally superior and police others. I personally know a few people (mainly at university) who had the same thing happen to them and they have to explain it’s actually a part of their culture and defend their ‘whiteness’ because someone (in these cases it actually came from white students) thinks they are allowed to judge and police what people wear and enjoy 🙄😠

@VladmirsPoutine

Thing is I personally don't take issue with Alice from accounts eating plantain or doing whatever she likes with her hair. Where I do is when Jamie Oliver for example invents 'jerk rice'.

That was the biggest joke ever.

[quote Travelledtheworld]@Loveshelly I believe anyone can wear Royal Stewart but otherwise you should wear your Clan tartan, IF you are Scottish.
Not getting into the cultural Appropriation debate though.[/quote]
My local shopkeeper has a son who is intensely proud of being both a Scot and a Hindu. The family was going south to a wedding and he decided to wear traditional
Highland dress :the kilt, the black dress jacket with the silver buttons, the knee socks...he cut a fine figure in his 8 yards of tartan!
He is happy to be Scottish, happy to be Hindu.There is no question of cultural appropriation here. And if we try, he is the future.

@YourFinestPantaloons

I'm also very much in the "just fucking listen" camp. If POC en masse are telling us cultural appropriation is damaging, how about we listen to them? Would that be so hard?

To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying that in this instance listening to the victims is wrong.

But it is entirely illogical that a victim group automatically possesses the answers to resolving the situation. Especially since there is no such thing as a uniform POC stance on cultural appropriation.

In my opinion, it's not going to help literally anyone to be told they're doing a wrong and bad thing when they had no intent, and not even everyone agrees they did a bad thing. It's all very well sneering at "white fragility", but if you want to solve the problem, the answer isn't making people who have no bad intention feeling defensive. It turns people who weren't the problem into part of the problem.

The girl who copies Beyoncé's braids because she worships her is not the boss who tells someone their braids are inappropriate.

Why can’t people just use their brains?

Cornrows on white models by white designer to help sell clothes = cultural appropriation

Cornrows on white models by black designer to help sell clothes = whatever, they look stupid but if you’re the model you’re hardly going to argue with Rihanna about it. Everyone else: if you’re not black (even if you are), just listen to the discussion and see how nuanced it is

White woman who’s never worn a sari before, wearing one to Sikh friend’s wedding = dressing up in a costume rather than wearing your own clothes, but in a basically inoffensive way

White woman wearing “funky” African tribal print because she personally thinks it looks good = depends what you know. If nothing, it’s idiotic and open to ridicule, but the worst of it is ignorance

Anyone from any culture wearing/dancing/saying anything that’s not theirs IN ORDER TO MAKE MONEY OR GAIN INFLUENCE BY VIRTUE OF SIGNALLING AFFINITY WITH THAT CULTURE = cultural appropriation which, even before it was commonly called that, was unacceptable. So, yes, looking at Nike et al.

@maddening

I don't think that Africa is the only origin of braiding hair.

It's not, no.

But slaves used to braid their hair to signify that they were planning to escape. Sometimes intricate braids would be weft in to show the routes they had planned, so other slaves knew.

It was a tool borne of oppression.

I can absolutely see why POC are infuriated that something with such significance to them holds no meaning to other people is being used in the height of fashion.

I also, probably still naively think... It's just hair.

It doesn't have to mean something to every one, and it's not for one group of people to police what other people do unless it infringes on their rights.

But it is easy for me to say that as I have never been in a situation with that kind of oppression.

@Loveshelly

Is it the same as an English person wearing clan tartan. Because i have done that and not thought twice about it

I dare say some of my fellow Scots could get themselves in a twist about it, but the truth is that clan tartans are a recent and manufactured thing - and new tartans are ‘designed’ on a fairly regular basis.

The wild highlanders of old wore clothes dyed with whatever grew around them and no way did they weave them into symmetrical checks.

I had English friends at my wedding ( a few decades ago now) who wore kilts and I though it was fun - we took the piss - but it was also a nice gesture. Any man who is willing to wear a kilt for a friend is fine by me.