Cultural appropriation...how bad is it?

[malificent7]

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?
I love african wax print fabric but don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation if i wear a bit of it. I also own sari fabric clothes.

Aibu to ask mn who may or may not be from different ethnic backgrounds would they consider Rhianna or my behaviour inappropriate and what constitutes real cultural appropriation?

This is not a racist thread as dd is mixed race.

I think hair braiding is a bit tricky, just because black women directly face discrimination for their hair, so for someone white to have that hairstyle, when they can do so without the same judgements, is problematic.

Ah but white people who were to braid or lox their hair do face judgements because it's associated with black peoples and negative stereotypes e.g. 'ghetto' etc.

Although you're right they wouldn't be discriminated for it. But white people doing things like that will get frowned upon by both black and white people in response.

People always use the kardashians as an example of white privilege and appropriation blah but you're average Dave walking down the high street with locs is a different matter

Because BSL would also help them. Makaton isnt a language so has a limit. Often children get to the point where makaton isnt enough and then are told to move onto BSL but its harder to learn BSL if picked up so many mistakes through makaton. So why not just promote good quality BSL support for all.

BSL like all languages has regional variations. That isnt the issue here.

BSL and all sign languages across the world was banned by oralist movement. with deaf people being terrible punished for using signs. A hearing oralist who was anti BSL set up makaton using signs from a language she didnt agree with and from a community she had no respect for. Believing as a hearing person she could cherry pick aspects of this language to make it more like english and therefore superior.

@Carnayshun
This is always the responce discussions about cultural appropriation get.

Supporting black led buisnesses is not cultural appropriation. Appropriation is setting up a white led buisness selling a black cultural product at substandard quality and therefore causing quality black led provision to flounder just because you can

@Covidworries my only experience of Makaton has been in cases where there have been other considerations, although sometimes in conjunction with, hearing loss (blindness, learning difficulties, brain injury). I’m not entirely comfortable in writing it off as ‘not a proper language’ when there are many people for whom it is their only means of communication and they’re unlikely to move onto BSL full time even if they regularly use some BSL in their communication.

Supporting black led buisnesses is not cultural appropriation
What about if the product they sell is something that is part of black culture and/or from a country where the people are black? Is it ok for white people to buy and use that product? Eg the aforementioned Nigerian clothes being sold in the UK?

BSL can be used extremely effectively with all those you mention.

I write as someone with extensive knowedge of BSL, makaton, signalong and supporting people with a variermty of needs

@Balonzette

I have a beautiful sari my sister bought me when she spent a year living in Nepal. I have never dared wear it. (None of us has any relevant heritage). It makes me sad that things are this way these days.

So you don’t think makaton has any place at all @Covidworries?

I think BSL should be used to optimise the best outcomes for all young people. Those already started on makaton should recieve skilled support to give them the best outcomes and develop their skills in an individual appropriate way which isnt limited by makaton alone.

Someone up thread said it's mostly 2nd/3rd gen immigrants that get most worked up is right I think, for good reason.
When our parents arrived in UK, they had a very demarcated culture from White Brits.The second generation are a mish mash of the cultures, and often get bullied in school for their "foreign" element. Take the hijab for example - I was beaten up as a teen girl, ridiculed and spat at for wearing it. In recent years it has been worn in the fashion industry as an accessory by non Muslims. For me, it being paraded as a mere fashion statement is a bit of a kick in the teeth and almost minimizes my struggle, if that makes sense? To see my bullies oohing and ahhing over a model wearing it because now it's own trend is a very bitter pill to swallow.
What I wouldn't have any issue with is a non Muslim wearing it on National Hijab Day (I've seen people here claiming it is CA) as to me that is an act of solidarity, rather than a whimsical fashion move.

At the end of the day people should wear what they want, but should be mindful of the reasons that some others might find it triggering or offensive.

[quote Cornettoninja]@Covidworries my only experience of Makaton has been in cases where there have been other considerations, although sometimes in conjunction with, hearing loss (blindness, learning difficulties, brain injury). I’m not entirely comfortable in writing it off as ‘not a proper language’ when there are many people for whom it is their only means of communication and they’re unlikely to move onto BSL full time even if they regularly use some BSL in their communication.[/quote]
That’s my only experience of Makaton as well, being used by children with learning difficulties who are unlikely to be able to access BSL.
It worked as a means of communication for them, along with visual aids and other support materials.

What reaaaally bothers me is chefs making and adding completely non traditional ingredients, whilst claiming it is "authentic". Jamie Oliver is notorious for this. Does anyone remember the chicken rendang debacle on Masterchef? This is exactly what I mean.

Just to add, I have no issue with chefs saying "this is my spin on " but for them to purposely butcher a dish and then claim it is authentic just comes across as I'm eating "foreign muck".

@kinzarose I agree with you on that. Some of my relatives arrived in the UK with pretty much a backpack, a friend's address and a few hundred pounds. They had sometimes 2 / 3 jobs, worked very long hours in strenuous jobs. Survival was their focus not whether some white women were wearing saris or wax prints.

A lot of our parents had quite precarious status in the UK so were often on their 'best behaviour'. They tried to assimilate and not ruffle too many, if any, feathers. 2nd / 3rd gens give absolutely no fucks and are very vocal about these things - good for them!

@NovemberWitch

Exactly very limited experience means you are unable to define and understand the full benefits of BSL. You have been sold the makaton misconception that BSL isnt suitable without having enough knowledge of BSL and exactly why it is the best option to meet all children who need or benefit from sign communication regardless of all and any additional needs

@GoOnDoAnASEyeroll

Thank you for this reply it is really insightful.

@GoOnDoAnASEyeroll

Great posts (and username), Balonzette!

Thank you

@kinzarose

Someone up thread said it's mostly 2nd/3rd gen immigrants that get most worked up is right I think, for good reason. When our parents arrived in UK, they had a very demarcated culture from White Brits.The second generation are a mish mash of the cultures, and often get bullied in school for their "foreign" element. Take the hijab for example - I was beaten up as a teen girl, ridiculed and spat at for wearing it. In recent years it has been worn in the fashion industry as an accessory by non Muslims. For me, it being paraded as a mere fashion statement is a bit of a kick in the teeth and almost minimizes my struggle, if that makes sense? To see my bullies oohing and ahhing over a model wearing it because now it's own trend is a very bitter pill to swallow. What I wouldn't have any issue with is a non Muslim wearing it on National Hijab Day (I've seen people here claiming it is CA) as to me that is an act of solidarity, rather than a whimsical fashion move.

At the end of the day people should wear what they want, but should be mindful of the reasons that some others might find it triggering or offensive.

I understand this, but times change and people evolve. It's awful that you were bullied for something that is a part of your culture. But in order for a society to be multicultural, people need to accept that it's not JUST second or third generation people that are a 'mish mash' of cultures. It's the whole of the UK. The country is a mish mash of cultures. Insisting on this new type of segregation is NOT going to help things. It's just to make it worse. If we all share and celebrate and blend our cultures then we end up in a more open and understanding and educated society.

Is it the same as an English person wearing clan tartan

No it isn’t.

@Balonzette who is calling for a separation of cultures? I gave my example of the hijab being used as a fashion accessory. It is a religious symbol, which many women in the UK have been discriminated against for. IMO seeing it used as a fashion accessory, with the sole purpose of money making by large fashion designers crosses a line. I'm not saying no one else should wear it, just saying why it can seem triggering. I for one love new cultures and think sharing ideas/ways of life is great. That isn't what is happening here though - someone has introduced a 'new concept', been applauded for it and made a lot of money from it - except it's not new, Muslim women have been wearing it for centuries but have gotten disdain for it.

^ and from what I understand the issue with cane rows/loks/dreads etc is the same idea - Black people have been punished for wearing their hair like this for a long time, but when White people do it it is an a fashionable statement.

To me, if someone asks respectfully, or is given, a privilege to use a treasured and extremely meaningful aspect of another culture, that is not cultural appropriation. For example, my British born brother in law, has been gifted a ta moko (tatoo) by a Maori iwi (tribe). He has done much work creating 'prison on a plate', a programme whereby prisoners are taught hospo' skills, got inextricably linked to an iwi's sustainable fishery business, and is now fluent in the language. This has earned him the mana (status) and aroha (love) that meant that they gave him this priceless taonga (treasure).

However, Maori get pretty bloody incandescent with people who have absolutely no concept of the meaning and mana of ta moko, going about ripping them off, whether it be as a second rate tattoo done by someone with equally no concept, or whacking the designs on their t-shirts for profit. That is appropriation.

Given and used respectfully, not cultural appropriation. Taken, and used ignorantly or mockingly - cultural appropriation.

I often find those of the people who are used to taking, as they wish, are the ones who find it hardest to understand or accept the concept of cultural appropriation.

@kinzarose and @mbosnz

Agreed
very clear explanation

[quote Covidworries]@NovemberWitch

Exactly very limited experience means you are unable to define and understand the full benefits of BSL. You have been sold the makaton misconception that BSL isnt suitable without having enough knowledge of BSL and exactly why it is the best option to meet all children who need or benefit from sign communication regardless of all and any additional needs[/quote]
I can’t agree with this. Makaton is to assist understanding of spoken English for people with additional needs and should always be signed whilst speaking. BSL doesn’t follow the same grammar as spoken English and is a language in its own right. Therefore the two have different purposes.

But in order for a society to be multicultural, people need to accept that it's not JUST second or third generation people that are a 'mish mash' of cultures. It's the whole of the UK. The country is a mish mash of cultures. Insisting on this new type of segregation is NOT going to help things.

Well said @Balonzette.