Cultural appropriation...how bad is it?

[malificent7]

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?
I love african wax print fabric but don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation if i wear a bit of it. I also own sari fabric clothes.

Aibu to ask mn who may or may not be from different ethnic backgrounds would they consider Rhianna or my behaviour inappropriate and what constitutes real cultural appropriation?

This is not a racist thread as dd is mixed race.

[quote Covidworries]@pinkhampoppy

I wouldnt think wearing a sari is a problem. Posting on social media promoting your own sari making or a non culture company could be considered culture appopriation[/quote]
I didn't want to wear a sari when I got married because I found several social media pages "calling out" people for "cultural appropriation", where they took photos of non-Indian women wearing saris (or other Indian items, or things from different cultures) by taking screenshots of their personal photos from social media (or perhaps were sent them by someone else) and posted them on their "anti-cultural-appropriation" pages with really hateful captions. They'd stolen loads of photos ffromwome. and "called them out" in this way.

(I also hate the "calling out" thing which seems to be just bullying someone for having a different opinion to you and trying to publicly humiliate you and round up other people to attack you as well, but that's another issue!)

The point is, my ILs was absolutely outraged when she heard about this cultural appropriation thing. MIL and my SILs basically FORCE their clothes and other traditional fashion items on non-Indian travellers they meet in India! They think it's so exciting and lovely to share their culture, it makes them SO proud, they think everyone looks better in a sari regardless of their heritage

If any British or Americans come along and tell them that they shouldn't be doing this and think that they've got some kind of right to block them from sharing their culture that they're so proud of... Well, I'd love to see that conversation. I imagine it would be very loud and very fierce

I have travelled extensively and lived in various places in both Africa and Asia and have found that most people I have met are similar to my in-laws. Sharing their culture with people they meet - clothes and food and other fashion - is a lovely thing.

I agree with my husband. If you are not from that culture - you don't speak the language, you have never lived there or been a part of the culture - then is it still your culture? Or if you're born and brought up in England/America, are you just basically English/American and jelaously clinging to something pretty or cool because you think it's yours and you don't want to share?

If an actual Indian person enjoys sharing their culture, why does a British person who was born and brough up in the UK, and has never lived in India, but had Indian grandparents, for example, get to decide that this is wrong??

It's also odd how a white person who moves abroad, and lives there for many years, embraces the culture they've moved to by learning the language and shares the fashion and learns to cook traditional dishes and celebrates the festivals, etc, will be accused or cultural appropriation if they visit the UK in the traditional dress of the country where they've lived for years and buy all their clothes from, even if they've lived in this place for their entire adult life! I've seen this happen also. Like people feel like they need to buy a whole new wardrobe of appropriate white-people clothes when they touch down in Heathrow for a quick visit for fear of being accused of cultural appropriation.

And yet a British person who has never visited the country, can't speak the language, knows little of the country and it's customs, but has grandparents or great grandparents who happen to be from that country, are free to wear whatever they want, like they have a claim to the culture they're no part of.

Reacting to racism by insisting on segregation and division is counter-productive.

The level of noise generated about CA should be turned towards this particular issue of discrimination against Black women's/people's hair, etc and POC's issue in general. Not focused on those borrowing from it or telling people to keep to their own.

Great posts (and username), Balonzette!

@GoOnDoAnASEyeroll

He thinks the cultural appropriation thing is a) British people with Indian (or other) heritage feeling clingy of the culture as they don't live this culture at all, and have no real connection to it other than maybe through their clothes or personal style

Very much agree with this. Holding onto something you don't have much of because if you did, you'd be more generous. A pp said if you were secure in your identity, you wouldn't be bothered about CA. I think that's right too, given the people who tend to be VS those who aren't.

Isn’t this similar to what David Lammy was accusing women of recently? Hoarding rights. The oppressed tend to what to keep hold of what they’ve fought hard to claim as theres.

This is different. I'd even say the reverse could be the case (using the quote I copied) but I won't derail the thread by talking about women's rights. David Lammy is just ignorant, is all I can to say.

@GoOnDoAnASEyeroll

What are you thoughts on the language examples posted?

What language examples?

If you are going to learn a language, learn the language not a watered down incorrect versio of the language. If you are going to gain money or status from teaching a language make sure you actually know the language. If you are learnong and posting videos for feedback to aid you learning this is fine but dont post the videos making out you are teaching. Post a video which clearly states you are a learning wanting feedback (ideally with a link to ways to learn for those you want to)

If you mean this and the post, yes I agree with it.

I posted about minority languages such as welsh and BSL

I agree with the post, though it's not about the language being oppressed and users punished (That is a separate issue and should be addressed on its own). Because what you're inadvertently saying is if it isn't from an oppressed language, then its free for all to butcher while teaching.

So just don't teach any language or make money from it if you're not familiar with it.

Oh course true for any language.
But oppressed groups tend to have a battle to make people understand this. And be told t
Things like just be grateful people are using the language

Lots of non-native English speakers teach English. Sometimes they aren't that great at the language themselves, but they are still able to help people improve.

Lots of people learn Makaton to use with babies and non-communicative kids and even some adults who may not be deaf but who benefit from a more visual communication system. It's not BSL, it's different. There's nothing wrong with learning, speaking or teaching it.

I'm sure some people claim to be 'experts' when they're not really, but this is corruption not 'appropriation' in the way we've been discussing it. You shouldn't be corrupt. But if you speak a bit of a language, there's nothing wrong with sharing that with others.

@TheKeatingFive

I find the concept of it nonsensical.

It depends on two assumptions to make logical sense. Neither hold up.

Firstly that cultural practices can be neatly and discretely ‘owned’ by individual cultures, which is fundamentally not how human cultural practices work.

Secondly, that we can make a neat list of all cultures from most to least oppressed and proceed accordingly, which is also silly.

I’ve never come across an example of problematic behaviour attributed to cultural appropriation that isn’t just pure and simple racism. We don’t need another word for it.

As humans, we’ve benefitted hugely from cultural assimilation and sharing. Creating barriers to this strikes me as a huge step backward.

I agree with all of this. Good post.

The language thing is clear because specific countries and ethnicities have their own language. You can actually pinpoint who speaks it and who doesn't, regardless of how the language has evolved.

It's quite clear when someone is speaking English, for example, incorrectly while teaching. It really doesn't make sense to teach people something you don't know. Things like this should be called out, yes.

It's different when someone is trying to speak or learn, as you've said.

I don't think non-native English speakers = can't speak English. Lots of non-native English speakers are as fluent as native English speakers and lots are better teachers of the language.

I think it's about teaching what you know. And where you're not that familiar but still have to teach the basics that you know, you teach as someone who's not that familiar but want to help some people know what you know. Not as an expert.

@beastlyslumber

Makaton is culture appropriation they literaly took the signs from BSL whilst oppressing the deaf community. Margret walker refused to learn BSL from the native teacher. After one lesson she brought a book to teach herself and made makaton which she believed to be better than BSL as it uses English speech and grammer. They try and say it is easier to learn but they can not make this judgement as they have never actually learnt BSL.
It benefits because it is BSL signs but why not just use BSL and empower the sign language experts who would mean far more benefits and inclussion.

There are children who need BSL being denied it becaise makaton is suposedly cheeper and easier. We have BSL users being told they are signing wrong.

We have people learning signs which are actually wrong why would you want to teach someone incorrect. Surely the pirpose of learning a language is to communicate with users of that language.

BSL is suitable for any age, and any additional need. It full benefit and scope is continually put down by those wanting to make money by a lesser quality provision.

@GoOnDoAnASEyeroll

Yes agreed

@GoOnDoAnASEyeroll

I don't think non-native English speakers = can't speak English. Lots of non-native English speakers are as fluent as native English speakers and lots are better teachers of the language.

I think it's about teaching what you know. And where you're not that familiar but still have to teach the basics that you know, you teach as someone who's not that familiar but want to help some people know what you know. Not as an expert.

No, I'm not saying that. But I've personally known many non-native English speakers who taught English and EFL and weren't that good at the language. Some of them have been my students so I knew their abilities very well. (I also know non-native speakers who are amazingly fluent and fantastic teachers.)

I agree people shouldn't try to fool others about the extent of their abilities. But if you're in a place (e.g. a little village in the middle of nowhere) where you're the only person who speaks a bit of English, then you'll inevitably be an expert compared to everyone else!

I've "taught" languages that I speak to only a basic level but I've not pretended I'm an expert. Just helped people to come up with some basic phrases and expressions to help them navigate common situations and directed them to further resources. I don't think people are that dumb to assume that someone who clearly can't string a sentence together is a total expert - especially now you can go on youtube and find native speakers of any language in the world. I also don't think people are teaching made up languages and getting away with it.

I guess I'm saying I think it's a non-issue.

Maybe not spoken langauge but it happens all the time in signed languages like BSL and ASL

We have people learning signs which are actually wrong why would you want to teach someone incorrect. Surely the pirpose of learning a language is to communicate with users of that language.

Sorry but what you call "wrong" I would just call "a different language." It's like saying that you're speaking English wrong because you're using all Spanish words in your sentences. No, you're not speaking English wrong. You're speaking Spanish correctly.

Makaton and BSL are different languages (Makaton isn't really a language at all). They are not interchangeable. People who know Makaton are aware that it's not BSL. Should they be using BSL instead? I don't know, maybe they could learn both. I certainly know people who started using Makaton with their babies, became interested in sign languages, and have gone on to learn BSL or ASL.

I agree people shouldn't try to fool others about the extent of their abilities. But if you're in a place (e.g. a little village in the middle of nowhere) where you're the only person who speaks a bit of English, then you'll inevitably be an expert compared to everyone else!

Yes that true (as is your post too). As always, there's always some nuance to these things, depending on the circumstances.

Makaton isnt a language, it has however taken the signs from BSL and many many people dont think there is a difference.

So using the signtaken from BSL but passed on wrong because the creator learnt from a book and misunderstood the diagram is not the same as someone speaking spanish or English which are 2 seperate languages. Its more like someone taking words from English but teaching the wrong pronounciation or spelling. When someone challenges this they make excuses that this spelling is easier so that why its used. Would you really think its acceptable for your child to be told off for spelling cat CAT because the teacher thinks it shoult be KAT as that is easier for them

I buy clothes by Kemi Telford because I love them. I don't want to stop buying clothes with African designs just because I'm white. That would be ridiculous and detrimental to many small businesses

@Covidworries

Makaton isnt a language, it has however taken the signs from BSL and many many people dont think there is a difference.

So using the signtaken from BSL but passed on wrong because the creator learnt from a book and misunderstood the diagram is not the same as someone speaking spanish or English which are 2 seperate languages. Its more like someone taking words from English but teaching the wrong pronounciation or spelling. When someone challenges this they make excuses that this spelling is easier so that why its used. Would you really think its acceptable for your child to be told off for spelling cat CAT because the teacher thinks it shoult be KAT as that is easier for them

I know it's not a language. But it's very, very useful for people in certain situations. Why shouldn't they be allowed to use it if it helps them?

There are plenty of versions of English that are not "standard" but are widely spoken and some also have non-standard written versions of the language. Even between the UK and US there are differences in spellings, usage, grammar and vocabulary. I think in any given context we should agree which language or which version of a language we are using and follow those conventions. E.g. in a British school, I would object to children being taught American spelling, or being taught 'Spanglish' as though it's standard English, but that doesn't mean it's wrong in itself for those versions to exist, or wrong for people to be taught them in general.

I don't think people should be told they're using BSL when they're actually using Makaton, and can see how that would piss people off. But tbh I've never known anyone who thought they were the same thing. Surely there's enough information and resources available now that people can work out that there's a lot more than just one sign language or sign system. If they're interested enough to learn Makaton, I would think they'd be able to quickly see that it's not a language like BSL or ASL.

I buy clothes by Kemi Telford because I love them
I notice the newly released autumn collection is mostly modelled by a white lady. It’s ridiculous to suggest that a black-owned business should refuse to sell their products to 95% of women in the UK because they’re not of African heritage.