To say there are some decent men

[Poppyscone]

I know there are many threads about how shit men are. It may be a shit partner not helping, abused by a stranger, sexism etc etc etc.

But to say some men are decent. My DH said this morning re the policemen just sentenced “we men are mostly basically shit aren’t we”
I told him he was one of the good ones and the good ones need to carry on trying to challenging these men who basically hate women
My DH had challenged many men over their behaviour towards women including dropping friendships.

I have epilepsy and DH had always had my back and supported me. Done more then his fare share with kids including most night feeds as well as working full time which I can do. Letting me sleep and recover after a seizure and taking charge without complaining.

He always make me feel good about myself, never pesters for sex and is a good dad.

Yep sure he had his faults he is a bit disorganised and he seems to think dirty clothes belong on the bedroom floor (but does pick them up when asked)
He snores like a machine gun and I have to wear earplug but on the whole he is a decent bloke and I am sure there are many more out there. I would just like to here about them

The only mention of VAWG in that article is mass shootings and incels, which is a tiny proportion of VAWG, and is often aimed at other men anyway, so I am not sure what relevance the article has to this thread.

@AnyFucker,

You are doing a good job in channeling your inner Paxman!

I have given you examples of where female behaviour damages males:in schools, in workplaces and, I suspect, in some homes here where sons are brought up feeling potential violent bullies and rapists.

I don’t have to provide you with anything at all! You can read my posts, agree or disagree and respond or ignore-as I can to yours. That is equivalence.

list of women killed every year

Perhaps you could start an equivalent list of men killed by women in the last year. And every year.

I’ll wait.

To go back to the point about newborns.

Women, as primary carers, are used to being policed. How we are behaving in the domestic sphere is monitored by midwives, health visitors, schools and nurses.

Children’s social care not operates in such a way that every family is under their supervision. They decide if you should be moved up or down from universal to early help, child in need or child protection.

If you are a victim of DV and up in a refuge, they will monitor your parenting and report on it. If you have a baby young you may still end up on a mother and baby unit.

And women accept all this policing. Part of the reason so many men end up losing in child contact cases is because when cafcass ask questions about their drinking or drug use or violence or not turning up to pick up their kids, they get angry and confrontational. Because the kind of interference that women field all the time as primary carers is deemed as unacceptable when aimed at men.

And that’s the kind of change that would help- if men were put under the same kind of scrutiny in their behaviour that women routinely are, we might prevent much of the violence.

You are doing a good job in channeling your inner Paxman!

And you’re doing a great job in channeling Michael Howard.

All those who are saying that they always challenge prejudice are being somewhat hypocritical if they are not challenging the rampant misandry in some of these comments

I care literally NOT ONE JOT and i don't care if that makes me a hypocrite. Apart from the fact that actual misandry is a bullshit concept as long as MEN are in CHARGE OF ALL THE THINGS, i really can't be arsed to argue the point with you.

When most men are routinely afraid they will be hurt by any woman they come across, when most men routinely don't go out at night etc etc then i'll start to sympathise.

Some men are afraid of some women and as individuals that is tragic for them. I sympathise. I empathise.

The Margaret Atwood quote gets trotted out so often people have stopped being shocked by it, but here it is again "men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them"

And you know what? Fuck them. Every IWD i and some feminist friends post links to resources like Women's Aid, breast cancer info etc etc. And every year some man-child butts in with "wah what about da menz" and every year we patiently point out that they can
a) raise awareness of men's issues any time they like
b) it's 19th November
c) on IWD it is tone deaf to bleat about poor ol' men (not that men don't have issues but seriously IT IS ONE DAY)

And often, just before 19th November we treat the biggest "wah wah wah" men with a tweet to remind them what's coming up. And what the issue that is being highlighted that year will be and so on. And guess what? THEY NEVER EVER TAKE ANY NOTICE OR DO ANYTHING

So wah wah wah, they can whistle. Misandry is not coming from an entrenched ingrained position of default power, if it happens at all.

*as a class. Individual men may be fine.

@Puffalicious absolutely agree with you. I hate seeing all these memes telling men to ‘Just stop attacking women’. I think it is setting a bad example to vulnerable women to just go about their business because we’ve asked nicely. You wouldn’t leave your front door open at night because people should respect that it is your house and not theirs. So why should we encourage women to walk at night and not take precautions to stay safe?

I absolutely agree that we shouldn’t have to - no one should - but I cannot ignore common sense because I don’t believe these things should happen in the first place.

PS OP - I agree that there are more good men than bad and it saddens me that women are just turning against men because of some absolute monsters in the world.

It is interesting that, in schools, many girls think of boys as 'lazy' and 'smelly' and would far rather cowork with other girls than with a boy. I also post a link below to an article in the Times showing how poorly boys, and especially working class white boys, are performing in schools.

ridiculous comparison! So girls are to blame because boys aren't as intelligent as them? In some countries girls don't even get to go to school - there's not a place on earth that male children face those levels of discrimination. Misandry doesn't come close to misogyny - there's no equivalence.

Not challenging someones language is not necessarily condoning comments. There are different views on what is acceptable and what is not - the vast majority of people agree on some of this. However, I have heard people complain about man-splaying and misonyginstic language which I would not have categorised in that way. Views differ . This tragic event needs to be dealt with - improved vetting etc, that is the issue .

@Ledition,

You actually believe that boys are less intelligent than girls?!

Based on what?

it saddens me that women are just turning against men because of some absolute monsters in the world.

It's amazing it's taken so long for women to turn against men don't you think? Women are turning - not based on unfounded prejudice - but based on their lived experiences of awful male behaviour. Remember those studies a few months ago that said 90 something percent of women have faced sexual harassment? It was not just "some monsters" doing that harassment it was droves and droves of "normal" men. Women have been incredibly tolerant of this and excused it for far too long.

*You actually believe that boys are less intelligent than girls?!

Based on what?*

Based on school results, based on the women I know, based on the fact eight of the top ten schools in my country are girls schools. Perhaps it's in part because women and girls have to work harder to get the recognition that men take for granted?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sarah-everard-murder-killer-and-police-shared-abusive-messages-5bpkj5wsk

Could you get beyond the firewall on this one for me @TheReluctantPhoenix, I'm sure I'm only a few paragraphs away from learning these poor men are being unfairly portrayed in a world full of misandry, if that helps.

@Feelingoktoday

“unless they are actively involved in fighting to change it, they don't deserve or need our praise.”

My partner is a good one. He still would never challenge a mate for sexist behaviour. He would not say to a friend “that joke is inappropriate”. He is not going on Protests for women’s rights.

He's part of the problem. He's enabling men to still think this is ok.

We need men to challenge this sexist shit. Women doing it just get patronised /told to wind their neck in.

@Ledition

it saddens me that women are just turning against men because of some absolute monsters in the world.

It's amazing it's taken so long for women to turn against men don't you think? Women are turning - not based on unfounded prejudice - but based on their lived experiences of awful male behaviour. Remember those studies a few months ago that said 90 something percent of women have faced sexual harassment? It was not just "some monsters" doing that harassment it was droves and droves of "normal" men. Women have been incredibly tolerant of this and excused it for far too long.

It's amazing how many men truly still don't get it.

They think we're all worried and scared because of the odd case like Sarah Everard. No. We're all worried and scared because we get constantly harassed, bothered and even assaulted. Feeling, at the very least, uncomfortable because of a man leering at me or saying things is a weekly occurrence, if not a daily one. I've just been out to bring my bins in and was shouted at by a man in a van on the main road. I can't walk 12 minutes to my nearest station without being beeped at. Most of the time it's 'just' that but I can't know, can I? I can't know whether next time will be the time I get dragged into the van or dragged off the street.

I think if anything, as you say, it's amazing how kind and tolerant women are. We're basically like small fish in a tank full of sharks trying not to get bitten, and when we dare to complain about it, we're called misandrists.

@Ledition

*You actually believe that boys are less intelligent than girls?!

Based on what?*

Based on school results, based on the women I know, based on the fact eight of the top ten schools in my country are girls schools. Perhaps it's in part because women and girls have to work harder to get the recognition that men take for granted?

Men actually blame women for this, too. Apparently girls are favoured by teachers and the 'system'. It could never just be that girls work harder and strive for better things. It could never be that women could have achieved all this all along had they not been subjugated by men. No, no, it's all a conspiracy to keep the poor white men down.

Men actually blame women for this, too. Apparently girls are favoured by teachers and the 'system'. It could never just be that girls work harder and strive for better things. It could never be that women could have achieved all this all along had they not been subjugated by men. No, no, it's all a conspiracy to keep the poor white men down.

Yes Cecilie and the underperformance of working class white boys is often said to be due to them having no "strong male role model" but instead of actually placing the blame for that on useless, absent fathers the people who get vilified are the single mothers who are the ones who actually stick around and put the work in! Single mothers work harder than most any other contingent in society with pitiful support and they get the "blame"?? It's utter madness and it turns my stomach.

@CecilieRose,

So do boys and men just work harder or have more intelligence in STEM subjects?

It is funny how, when men outperform, it is the ‘system’ and when women outperform it is just intelligence and hard work.

There is little actual evidence for either section being more intelligent.

Have you not read Animal Farm?

We should strive for both sexes to achieve their potential, that is the way ahead for a successful society.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@CecilieRose,

So do boys and men just work harder or have more intelligence in STEM subjects?

It is funny how, when men outperform, it is the ‘system’ and when women outperform it is just intelligence and hard work.

There is little actual evidence for either section being more intelligent.

Have you not read Animal Farm?

We should strive for both sexes to achieve their potential, that is the way ahead for a successful society.[/quote]
Women have been excluded from STEM subjects for decades. Girls now outperform boys in STEM subjects at school, so what does that tell you? It was never about intelligence or aptitude, was it? It was women being excluded and discriminated against because men wanted to keep it blokey and cliquey.

Women were the ones who originally had all the programming jobs, then men decided they wanted them and became all gatekeepery about the entire industry. I faced nothing but people trying to put me off going into tech when I showed an interest as a teenager. I don't know any man who wasn't encouraged.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@AnyFucker,

You are doing a good job in channeling your inner Paxman!

I have given you examples of where female behaviour damages males:in schools, in workplaces and, I suspect, in some homes here where sons are brought up feeling potential violent bullies and rapists.

I don’t have to provide you with anything at all! You can read my posts, agree or disagree and respond or ignore-as I can to yours. That is equivalence.[/quote]
That's not female behaviour damaging males.

"While males still tend to predominate at the very highest level of academic testing, females on average score much higher than their male counterparts. And fourth, there are more than one million more men than women incarcerated. Prison populations skew towards the younger age range and many more college-age men are likely to be behind bars."

Women working harder at school and college and trying get ahead in jobs is not damaging males. Males not working harder is damaging males. Toxic male influence is damaging males. Women are not responsible for men beating up other men and ending up in prison. I don't understand how you can argue that's even a thing!

As a society we should value both genders, one isn't "better" than the other. This case is tragic it is unusual - the actions need to ensure this does not happen again. I don't believe we should be setting males against females, society is not inherently bad

@CandyLeBonBon,

I find it fascinating that so many people don’t think one of the most important influences (if not the most important) on boys is their mother.

It is as if mothers just want to step away from their sons’ behaviour and blame other men.

Society is complex and we all have lots of things that make us who we are.

This idea that women are minnows in a shark tank, when most choose to live with and breed with the ‘sharks’ and that we can cut a neat line between the sexes and blame men for male behaviour even though most of us have brought them up..,..

It is just, to me, fascinating…

However, I have heard people complain about man-splaying and misonyginstic language which I would not have categorised in that way

Look if you can't understand that a man calling out another man shouting "phwoar! i want some of that" is what is required here, i don't know how to make it plainer.

What is "man-splaying" is that a typo for mansplaining? Women tackle that themselves, i hope by saying "i know that Roger, i wrote the actual book you're quoting" and so on.

If it's a weird way of describing manspreading - well, again, that's not what we'Re talking about.

We'Re talking about "show us your tits" to any woman who walks into a pub full of drunk football fans (example)
Or passing round photos in a whatsapp group of their selfie with two dead bodies - reporting that to a superior officer.

How difficult would it be for the men in our lives to do that? Not very, that's what.

@Pffffft

PS OP - I agree that there are more good men than bad and it saddens me that women are just turning against men because of some absolute monsters in the world.

He’s not a monster, he is a man.