To say there are some decent men

[Poppyscone]

I know there are many threads about how shit men are. It may be a shit partner not helping, abused by a stranger, sexism etc etc etc.

But to say some men are decent. My DH said this morning re the policemen just sentenced “we men are mostly basically shit aren’t we”
I told him he was one of the good ones and the good ones need to carry on trying to challenging these men who basically hate women
My DH had challenged many men over their behaviour towards women including dropping friendships.

I have epilepsy and DH had always had my back and supported me. Done more then his fare share with kids including most night feeds as well as working full time which I can do. Letting me sleep and recover after a seizure and taking charge without complaining.

He always make me feel good about myself, never pesters for sex and is a good dad.

Yep sure he had his faults he is a bit disorganised and he seems to think dirty clothes belong on the bedroom floor (but does pick them up when asked)
He snores like a machine gun and I have to wear earplug but on the whole he is a decent bloke and I am sure there are many more out there. I would just like to here about them

My partner is a good one. He still would never challenge a mate for sexist behaviour. He would not say to a friend “that joke is inappropriate”. He is not going on Protests for women’s rights.

Mine would. He does. (he called out some racism at work - now the racist and his mates won't speak to him, which is fine, but they have stopped making the remarks to a junior colleague so that's good.)

The only time that I'm sure he wouldn't is if it would put him in physical danger, or the subject of the remarks might be in danger of his intervention. And I'm ok with that.

And this chap is a gruff northerner, beer, football, meat pies and gravy, the lot. And years ago he would have probably gone along with it. But he has grown up.

All the wittering on about women killing babies - the point has already been rebutted but I'll stress it again. If i heard women making jokes about that? I would be all over them like a fucking rash. As i would with anyone making light of rape, murder and the rest.

As an aside because I am supposed to be working and this is my teabreak: what are the statistics on women in the UK killing newborns? Despite, as pp mentioned, the fairly robust (but obvs not perfect) systems that have been put in place to avert this?

For me the biggest problem isn't that men rape, kill and hurt women. I mean it is a massive problem that those few men do it (does that make the NAMALT crew happy?). The BIGGEST problem is a culture that doesn't try to nip this in the bud. Flashers often escalate. We know that harming animals in your youth can be an indicator of psychopathic tendencies leading to worse things later on.

Where are the robust systems to protect as many women as possible?

@CecilieRose,

Not challenging is not the same as condoning.

Can you honestly say that you have challenged every inappropriate remark you have ever heard a friend say, regardless of who you were with or the setting?

Would you judge a woman as harshly as a man for not calling out every sexist/racist/ableist remark, no matter degree or context?

Sometimes one just chooses to ignore and quietly judge in one’s own mind.

Can you honestly say that you have challenged every inappropriate remark you have ever heard a friend say, regardless of who you were with or the setting?

Yes

Christ we fucking know. We all know a man who isn't a rapist for fuck sake.

We're not saying it's all men. We're saying it's always a man and I'm not sure the decent men are spending nearly as much time as the women thinking about how we can stop this from happening. The problem is decent men see themselves as a completely separate species as Wayne Couzens not as somewhere along the same continuum that starts with nicknaming someone a rapist because they're a bit dodgy and finding it all a bit of a joke.

Can you honestly say that you have challenged every inappropriate remark you have ever heard a friend say, regardless of who you were with or the setting?

My friends don’t say inappropriate things, they wouldn’t be my friends if they did. I didn’t used to challenge things but for the last 10 or so years I have, every time I’ve hear a racist, sexist, homophobic etc remark, I’ve pulled the person up on it. Most the time they’re embarrassed at being called out, say they didn’t mean it like that, tell me they’re not racist cos they have a black friend, couldn't be sexist cos he is a dad to a daughter etc...one did flounce off....oh well. Lots of people put their heads down or look uncomfortable that I’ve challenged the other person but I really don’t care. Why should I? They’re the ones in the wrong, not me.
The only time I wouldn’t challenge is if I felt I, or another person would be in danger by me doing it. But if it’s just dealing with a bit of awkwardness, getting challenged back, who cares. They’re wrong and need to be told.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@CecilieRose,

Not challenging is not the same as condoning.

Can you honestly say that you have challenged every inappropriate remark you have ever heard a friend say, regardless of who you were with or the setting?

Would you judge a woman as harshly as a man for not calling out every sexist/racist/ableist remark, no matter degree or context?

Sometimes one just chooses to ignore and quietly judge in one’s own mind.[/quote]
Yes.

By saying nothing, these men are giving a loud and clear message that what's being said is OK.

I had an ex like this - never, ever spoke up when someone was being sexist or otherwise awful. He'd judge them and complain later to me, but never said anything at the time. It's just cowardly. It's selfish.

Local BBC radio DJ (man) was genuinely angry at the way women are treated by men. He said that all men should call out the bullshit.

He was interviewing some 'expert' and DJ brought up about the fact that WC's colleagues called him 'the rapist' so it was clear they knew about him and why didn't top brass wonder why that was his nickname, Interviewee said that we don't know why he was called that and it might have been banter.

FFS

Would you judge a woman as harshly as a man for not calling out every sexist/racist/ableist remark, no matter degree or context?

don't be soft. As many of us have said repeatedly: it is for men to handle this among their peers.

FWIW: I call things out, yes. Most of my friends aren't misogynist, racist, ablist homphobic wankers though - i wouldn't hang out with them if they were. But me, a woman, calling out men for their behaviour? TBH i have, when i have judged that it won't put me in danger. My DH does too, when it won't put him in physical danger. My DDs also. Most people i know do it too.

It is the VERY LEAST i expect people to do. Especially men. And yes, if you stand around and let it go? you're an enabler. Stand up and admit it.

@ohfook

Christ we fucking know. We all know a man who isn't a rapist for fuck sake.

We're not saying it's all men. We're saying it's always a man and I'm not sure the decent men are spending nearly as much time as the women thinking about how we can stop this from happening. The problem is decent men see themselves as a completely separate species as Wayne Couzens not as somewhere along the same continuum that starts with nicknaming someone a rapist because they're a bit dodgy and finding it all a bit of a joke.

Exactly. Rape should never be a joke because it just isn't fucking funny. Most men I've ever known have jokingly called someone rapey. One group had someone in with the name Sex Pest because he'd slept with a lot of women. AFAIK he wasn't dodgy but why even make a joke out of it when actual sex pests have ruined women's lives?

All those who are saying that they always challenge prejudice are being somewhat hypocritical if they are not challenging the rampant misandry in some of these comments (and misandry is a thing and is prejudice, just the same as misogyny is).

It is interesting that, in schools, many girls think of boys as 'lazy' and 'smelly' and would far rather cowork with other girls than with a boy.

I also post a link below to an article in the Times showing how poorly boys, and especially working class white boys, are performing in schools.

The idea that society will make progress by making it into a 'war of the sexes' is antithetical to the way I think and the way I was brought up. I have worked for fabulous bosses of both sexes and awful bullying men and women. I have also fabulous friendships with both sexes, which have lasted over 30 years.

People are sui generis and 'NAMALT' is just an excuse for prejudice and lazy thinking.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-fall-behind-women-and-thats-a-problem-vmrl9mcmd

Wayne Couzen's wife probably thought she had 'one of the good ones'.

Policeman, dad, husband.

Also a sadistic murderer.

Unfortunately, we often don't know the bad ones from the good until it's too late, so we have to suspect them all.

* Men have to step up here - ALL of them. And start calling out their mates, family members etc when they are acting like misogynist twats.*

This really resonated with me, as a teenager a family member sexually assaulted me. Another family member was checking I was ok a few days later and actually said “he does it to someone every weekend, it’s just a shame it had to be you”. They are still very close friends. That makes him nearly as bad in my eyes. These abusive, dangerous men needs challenging by all their peers.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]All those who are saying that they always challenge prejudice are being somewhat hypocritical if they are not challenging the rampant misandry in some of these comments (and misandry is a thing and is prejudice, just the same as misogyny is).

It is interesting that, in schools, many girls think of boys as 'lazy' and 'smelly' and would far rather cowork with other girls than with a boy.

I also post a link below to an article in the Times showing how poorly boys, and especially working class white boys, are performing in schools.

The idea that society will make progress by making it into a 'war of the sexes' is antithetical to the way I think and the way I was brought up. I have worked for fabulous bosses of both sexes and awful bullying men and women. I have also fabulous friendships with both sexes, which have lasted over 30 years.

People are sui generis and 'NAMALT' is just an excuse for prejudice and lazy thinking.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-fall-behind-women-and-thats-a-problem-vmrl9mcmd[/quote]
‘Misandry’ is such a bullshit concept. You’ll be popular with the incels and MRAs though.

@DismantledKing,

Popular with most dictionaries and those who think logically, too.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@DismantledKing,

Popular with most dictionaries and those who think logically, too.[/quote]
‘Flat-earth theory’ is also in the dictionary. It’s still bullshit, much like your theory.

@DismantledKing,

You probably think that antisemitism is a bullshit concept too, as it is ‘punching up’ ((believe me, as a person of Jewish origins, I have heard this many times).

Prejudice is prejudice. I can’t stand the idea that some prejudice is somehow ok.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@DismantledKing,

You probably think that antisemitism is a bullshit concept too, as it is ‘punching up’ ((believe me, as a person of Jewish origins, I have heard this many times).

Prejudice is prejudice. I can’t stand the idea that some prejudice is somehow ok.[/quote]
Don’t be so fucking ridiculous. Nice straw man you’ve constructed there though.

@DismantledKing,

The whole idea of misandry not being a ‘thing’ is predicated on believing men ‘as a class’ are the subjugators due to the ‘patriarchy’ and it is ok to ‘punch up’.

Over centuries, Jews have been discriminated against because they are ‘rich’ and ‘control the money’, controlling and impoverishing everyone else (without any evidence, I hasten to add).

If you cannot see the similarity in logic, I cannot help you.

Prejudice against an entire set of human beings, based on sex (either!), creed or colour is prejudice. Not acceptable.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@DismantledKing,

The whole idea of misandry not being a ‘thing’ is predicated on believing men ‘as a class’ are the subjugators due to the ‘patriarchy’ and it is ok to ‘punch up’.

Over centuries, Jews have been discriminated against because they are ‘rich’ and ‘control the money’, controlling and impoverishing everyone else (without any evidence, I hasten to add).

If you cannot see the similarity in logic, I cannot help you.

Prejudice against an entire set of human beings, based on sex (either!), creed or colour is prejudice. Not acceptable.[/quote]
Comparing antisemitism to the justified fear of men due to their actions in society is such a stupid and insulting argument. There’s no logic there at all; I don’t think that you’re half as clever as you’ve convinced yourself that you are.

Didn't feel like reading the room before posting today OP?

Prejudice against an entire set of human beings, based on sex

You are describing VAWG by men as a class quite nicely there. Could you give us some examples where men just going about their daily business are in physical danger from women then ?

@AnyFucker,

That is such a reductionist argument.

Did you bother to read the Times article that I linked to?

The article is behind a paywall @TheReluctantPhoenix

@CandyLeBonBon,

I used a share token-let me try again, sorry.

Men fall behind women, and that’s a problem

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fca4faaa-221c-11ec-a1fd-37d9030e4d65?shareToken=9722720f8bd05dc9a21d87d686e53190

Let me know if that works?

I’ll ask you again. Can you give us some examples where men going about their daily business are in physical danger from women ?

If you are intent on equivalence, then you need to do that.