To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

I agree CICO doesn’t always work. Once your body has reached its ‘set point’ you are always going to be fighting it, and 9/10 it will be back… read burn by Herman pontzer, he’s done years and years of research on this. Especially the exercise to loose weight arguments.

Lisa Riley had weight loss surgery didn’t she? The problem is that most people concentrate on losing the weight and then don’t have a maintenance plan.

totally agreed, watch Dr Jason Fung on youtube (obesity code author). Some great videos explaining why it's all bollocks.

So what’s the answer then?

Lose weight by restricting calorie intake, then maintain weight loss by eating healthily and moderately

I think you are right but for different reasons. I started eating whole foods plant based as a friend recommended it. Basically an oil free, unprocessed diet of fruit, veg, starch and whole grain. I eat huge amounts of food (including pasta and potatoes and dark chocolate) and it is really so easy to keep my weight down. I stopped counting calories and eat without feeling hungry. I would guess I eat 1800-2000 and burn around 2000 as I am more muscular and active. So if I lose weight at all, it is slow and manageable. I have lost 4 inches from around my waist and stopped my blood pressure medication which is a blooming miracle. The MacDougall Programme and Forks Over Knives are good information about it.

To a large extent, I agree. I’ve recently suggested weight loss surgery to my partner as I can see him in the same pattern. He feels that it would be “admitting defeat”. I think it would release him from the negative pattern and thinking about his weight and address his health risks.

I think that the only solution is obesity prevention.

@MrsHood

So what’s the answer then?

There isn’t one so just eat what you like when you like

@Acrasia

Lisa Riley had weight loss surgery didn’t she? The problem is that most people concentrate on losing the weight and then don’t have a maintenance plan.

No, she didn’t have surgery, it was diet and exercise. It’s a wrong assumption that people who lose weight just ditch it all and go back to eating loads. Sometimes yes (but usually triggered by extreme cravings that they can’t resist) but often it’s because their body tries its hardest to conserve energy and bring the weight back up.

The idea of your body 'adapting' or having a 'set point' is flawed too though. What happens is that as you lose weight, your body needs fewer calories in order to function. So if you go from 15st to 10st, but then go back to eating your old 15st diet then you'll put all the weight back on, faster than before. You also burn fewer calories as you get older. My very short, slim DM in her sixties burns hardly anything (around 1100) a day if she doesn't exercise. I'm taller, heavier and younger (obviously!) and burn 1500-1600 with no exercise.

There is no simple black and white answer, and CICO is overly simplistic, but if you do want to oversimplify things then yes, people are overweight because they eat too much. That's not helpful at all though!

It's not bollocks in itself but I do believe in the obesogenic environment. The food industry has run rampant in this country for decades and has successfully changed the culture to one of constant eating, that in many cases you are morally at fault if eg your children aren't constantly snacking.

@Acrasia

Lisa Riley had weight loss surgery didn’t she? The problem is that most people concentrate on losing the weight and then don’t have a maintenance plan.

No she didn't. The only surgery she had was to have the loose skin removed afterwards.

CICO is physics. Unless your body defies the laws of physics it will work. In reality the reason it does not work is humans are not just biological machines and eat for many different reasons including emotional ones. It is also extremely hard to break a long habit of eating too munch. Also the obese people who get gastric bypass could theoretically get to a low BMI due to their low calorie intake if they do so for long enough. They normally do not because of loose skin and fat cells that do not shrink - CICO does work but it cannot reverse that. Also some just do eat too much and stretch their stomachs anyway.

Your body can adapt to lower amounts but there is still a base metabolic rate which it must receive in order to keep bodily functions going. If you eat below that you will lose weight. The problem is for most it is not sustainable to eat less than that. I think mine is somewhere are would 1100 calories. I could eat flees than that to loose weight but I would be miserable, cold, would lose my period, have iron deficient etc etc. Most people (rightly) would not maintain this for long.

So I guess I half agree and half don’t. CICO does work as it is science and we cannot break the rules of that. But other issues such as thyroid issues may mean the amount you need to eat is too low to have a normal life and not risk your health. And it is often very hard for someone who has morbidly obese to get back down to a normal weight especially due to loose skin and stubborn fat.

I am not sure I agree that you can only succeed with surgery. I know someone who was MO, had surgery, lost all the weight down to a healthy weight and is now back to the same size they were and maybe even heavier.

All these tools can fail as you still need to make changes for life and it's hard to do.

@Orangejuicemarathoner

Lose weight by restricting calorie intake, then maintain weight loss by eating healthily and moderately

And that’s been shown not to work for 95% of dieters. It’s easy to just think of overweight people as greedy gluttons who can’t stick to a simple rule but the truth is much more complex than that. Very few people want to be fat and the idea that slim people are just more disciplined than overweight ones is false. They’re just lucky that their bodies aren’t telling them to regain weight.

@Sparklfairy also is right. Something I missed out. is that you lose the weight you have to eat less and less to lose weight as your body burns less calories as you get smaller. This is really hard after some point.

Totally agree. I travelled once with friends. One overweight one not. We all ate the same for weeks and loved the same and the overweight one put on more weight and normal weight stayed the same. There’s so much we don’t understand about the gut and weight and obesity. Whilst there are obese people who sit around munching burgers and chocolate all day it’s not true in many cases and fat shaming is terrible.
Low carb and intermittent fasting is best chance to maintain I reckon.

I would need a life change plan - not eating all the stuff I love best, toast, biscuits, creamy puds, chips. Taking those away leaves a hole of no comfort, pleasure with added hunger pangs. And I'd need to do it for good really.
Just trying to get myself to accept this - no treats ever again!

@Stuffin

I am not sure I agree that you can only succeed with surgery. I know someone who was MO, had surgery, lost all the weight down to a healthy weight and is now back to the same size they were and maybe even heavier.

All these tools can fail as you still need to make changes for life and it's hard to do.

A small number of MO people may be successful but the vast majority won’t be. A lot of people feel like they must do it naturally, even though the chances of success are so slim. Surgery removes some of the feelings of intense hunger that formerly obese dieters have so that they can have a more normal relationship to food going forwards.

I don't think we can say that CICO/dieting "doesn't work" - it does what it says on the tin, people do lose weight.
I think we need more widely known methods to maintain weightloss, and how to live healthily. The information is out there if you look for it, but it's nowhere near as prevalent as diet culture.
I agree with you OP about low-carb, no processed foods - but if we all ate like that, think what would happen to all the profits of Big Food!

If you recalculate your BMR as you lose weight then for the vast majority of people the principle is absolutely true from a biological point of view. What it doesn't address/solve is the reasons why some people are overweight, and so a) it isn't that easy for many to adhere to, and b) if someone does lose the weight this way, its not always sustainable as whatever factor affected them before is likely still bubbling under.

An interesting podcast on this kind of thing is Maintenance Phase.

Debunks, for example, Keto Diet (invented as a trial for children with epilepsy in the early 20th century, no scientific evidence), Weight Watchers.

news.sky.com/story/overeating-not-the-primary-cause-of-obesity-claim-scientists-12406990 this article was fascinating and supports the low carb no processed model

Also episodes on the torrid history of the BMI and defining obesity.

One of the presenters is a ‘fat lady’ and talks about the poor odds of people of her size losing a significant amount of weight.

@Spiindoctor

I would need a life change plan - not eating all the stuff I love best, toast, biscuits, creamy puds, chips. Taking those away leaves a hole of no comfort, pleasure with added hunger pangs. And I'd need to do it for good really. Just trying to get myself to accept this - no treats ever again!

Yes, that’s the reality. For most obese people, the idea of a couple of biscuits or treats is completely unrealistic. You might be able to live with the hunger cravings for a couple of years or so but eventually something takes over and you can’t fight it. A total lifestyle change that you can do for life can have success if you can get rid of the hunger cravings. Personally I can only do that by cutting carbohydrates quite drastically. I just can’t do cake or chocolate if I want to be a normal weight and it’s not because I am greedy or lack discipline.