To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

@TheFoundations

Worth a watch.

Absolutely. Moving at a snails’s pace but the message is slowly getting through I think.

And eating healthily too.

Eat less (and eat the right foods) and move more has always worked for me. I've tried to trick myself into thinking it doesn't (when I've sneaked a biscuit with my tea, a little bite of someones cake, an extra creamy sauce on my salad) while doing calories in v out, but really, it's just me cheating which all adds up. When I've stuck to true calories in v out along with moving more, it has always worked.

@ShaneTheThird
But don't you find it confusing that in a short period of human history so many have lost all self-discipline? Perhaps it's more complicated?

It seems you all are saying reducing your calorie intake doesn't work for the morbidly obese. Maybe that's true, but for the average person who needs to shift half a stone it does work. It's not easy to maintain, but neither is fasting or low carbing or giving up cake and chips or whatever. It's tough, but for most of us giving up those 2 glasses of wine and dessert every night will make a difference. Whether or not you value being slim enough to maintain it is ultimately up to you!

I guess it's different if you're at the point of requiring surgery, and surely we need to help people not to get to that point.

Science: Weight is genetically and hormonally pre-determined. sustained, significant weight loss is impossible for 95% of people.

Everyone in the world but especially on Mumsnet: ThErEs So MuCh We DoN'T UnDeRsTand AbOuT WeIGHT and ObESiTY! Anyway you should try this diet!

It's not that CICO doesn't work. The reason that most larger people that follow healthier diets and lose weight regain the weight is because they reintroduce less healthy foods into their diet. Some regain all of the weight, while others regain some as they maintain some of their healthier eating habits.

A lot of obese people are emotional eaters, so of course it's very easy for them to regain the weight and the odds are against them. It doesn't mean that it's impossible but that there is a need for more obese people to be very aware of whether they're eating because they need the calories or for comfort. Slim people don't have this battle.

@BIWI

The book recommended by *@SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun* is a really good read and something that many on this thread would benefit from reading!

CICO works in the short term - long term it fucks up your metabolism, and creates a weight set point invariably higher than you want it to be. Plus, of course, that a seriously calorie-restricted diet is difficult to sustain, which means that it's almost inevitable that people end up reverting to their previous eating habits, thus regaining all the weight.

And it's never as simple as 'eat less/move more'. There's an awful lot more to weight gain (and loss) than that.

Totally agree.

Not all calories are equal! The hormonal response matters, as do the nutrients and fibre they offer. 100 cals of nuts does not equal 100 cals of dolly mixtures.

People fall for it (I did, for years) because in some senses it is obvious and 'true' but weight and metabolism is so much more than simple CICO.

Fasting, TRE and low carb work for me.

Maybe emotional overeating is an issue for some but for most obese people it seems to be genetics plus out of whack hormones in an obesogenic (refined) food environment.

[quote Namelessnancy]@ShaneTheThird
But don't you find it confusing that in a short period of human history so many have lost all self-discipline? Perhaps it's more complicated?[/quote]
Absolutely I think there is underlying reasons for it that science needs to look into but that wasn't what op was saying. She was saying diet and exercise didn't work because people gain the weight back. They are 2 seperate issues.

@wellards

Obviously there are the odd exceptions but I think once you hit your late 30s it's a concerted effort to not gain weight regardless if you've been overweight before.

Yes. I don't know anyone over the age of about 35 who doesn't have to make some sort of effort to maintain their current weight and/or they're trying to lose a few pounds. Although, some of them would definitely come across to people they didn't know that well as being 'naturally slim'.

People lose weight using CICO, but they don't have a maintenance plan. It's 'easy' to lose weight compared to keeping it off for life. Requires a level of willpower and obsession that most people just don't have/don't want to have.

I can lose weight easily, but to keep it off I have to basically behave as if I have an eating disorder. Not a healthy way to live either.

I do think I need to shake up my friends as some of them are not helping my ability to change and have noticed they’re adopting ‘feeder’ personalities trying to get me to eat cake and stuff I don’t want to eat. We hardly ever discuss the friends who consciously or subconsciously try to sabotage us either and it’s extremely common too

Yes because you are upsetting the status quo.
You are the fat friend,someone else is the funny friend.Someone else is the organiser.
People dont like change.

Me i have lost 2 1/2 stone since feb.
Its hard.And im mostly over the cravings.But there is some days i just want to eat till im sick.
But i dont.
Because i actually enjoy my food now.
I have the changed mindset [most of the time] but i still get the little voice telling me to eat all the high fat,carb lovely food. Because i deserve it.

www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet

Here is another 'defy the laws of physics' story about reduced carb. And, no, this guy would not have been burning over 5,000 calories a day for the CICO theory to work.

This reminds me of an article I read recently: How a fatally tragically flawed paradigm has derailed the science of obesity

It discusses some of the history of obesity research, going all the way back to the 1930s and how it impacts our understanding today. There is a quote - taken from a 1930s paper - that there are two kinds of obese people: those who are obese because they overeat and/or under exercise and those whose adiposity is not closely related to diet, but is caused by an endocrine or constitutional disorder.

However, around the same time, there was articles and research coming out saying it's all about gluttony - and that's where research and the airtime started to focus. There has been some progress in this as leptin and ghrelin have been discovered a couple decades ago, but I think there needs to be a bit more recognition that our understanding of the human body is limited, we are complicated, and there are factors involved that while have been noticed for over a century now (some observations are from 1910s). I mean, we can see in animals - as the article discusses, it's known some breeds of livestock fatten up easily and others don't, but we don't entirely understand why. Why should we think we can understand why entirely in people or that there is only one reason or tool for it?

There is quote by a researcher who has been trying to wrestle with this for many years: "They think I am denying the physics of thermodynamic law. I have to tell them that this is not what I’m doing. I tell them they’re making an assumption about the interpretation of thermodynamic law that they have no basis to do. I sense sometimes that I’m kind of convincing them, then seconds later they’re back again to the typical thinking about positive energy balance is driven by input minus output."

Even those at the top are stuck thinking we (humans) know, when really, there is a need to admit things are more complicated than our understanding and - like good scientists - test our biases and assumptions.

I'm physically mostly on the opposite side - I've spent more of my life underweight though I'm now in the middle of a healthy weight most of the time though it fluctuates a lot. It was oddly only when I became nutritionally deficient and physically deconditioned enough to affect my endocrine system that I started to gain weight without noticing or trying - and that was with a decreased appetite. I think - if we're looking population level - that a decrease in nutrition in commonly eaten foods and lower activity may be playing a role in how our systems work having experienced that myself to an extreme extent, our biology does respond to our environment, but it needs more research if we're going to make anything practical for anyone.

The ones I've seen so far are very early days of trying to apply more recent research that looks into it and it involves phases of undereating and maintenance alongside reconditioning work, but it's mainly been done by fitness professionals trying to find ways to help -- I think there is something in that which those researching it could use.

I was very slim in my 20s (I’m now 60) despite eating mostly crap and not exercising much. My lunch most days would be a cheese sandwich, a packet of crisps and a Twix or four fingered KitKat. On the other hand I didn’t drive and drank hardly any alcohol…..

@purplesequins

yabu it's always cico and move more eat less.

just how you arrive at that is different from ways of eating and diet.
you might not consiously count calories but by restricting food groups you aim to reduce them leading to weight loss.

The science would disagree. See the study I posted where a guy was eating 5800 cals of low carb food and 'defied the laws of physics' by not gaining at the expected rate.

I have had a prolactinoma ( a very small adenine/benign tumour in my pituitary gland) I take medication to reduce the prolactin levels but stop when the levels are near normal. It’s a balance between the side effects and benefits.
Apparently I have the classic weight problem associated with it.
I now take the meds all the time and find weight loss much easier and I have a different distribution of fat.
When I was first diagnosed 35yrs ago there was no reference to weight and weight management.
My appetite is so different when on the meds. I only eat when I’m hungry and find it really difficult to overeat.
Weight loss is complex and for some there are underlying medical causes. However I have never crossed over into obese. I could never eat a full packet of biscuits in one go for example. I can graze all day when I un-medicated. I suspect prolactin tricks the brain into thinking you are breast feeding so you gain fat stores required to do this.
Prolactinomas are thought to be common but often go undiagnosed. Symptoms are very similar to menopause so if they develop in 40s then they go undiagnosed.

Low carb doesnt work for me! I lived with my partners parents for a year whilst we saved for a house. They were on a slimming world regime and wanted us to eat communal meals (everything wholegrain, everything low fat) and my god! Never been so starving and fat simultaneously. Put on a dress size a month and so did DP. We were slim to begin with so initially we thought it was funny, and then it became slightly terrifying.

That's not low carb. Slimming world is low fat. Low carb is high fat and would not include any wholegrains. But yeah, a low fat diet like SW would likely cause you to be starving.

With regard to CICO I think processed foods are much easier for the body to extract the calories they contain. We probably don’t absorb the available calories in whole foods because they are not already half digested.
There are far more available mono and disaccharides available in processed food. Whole food is predominantly polysaccharides so takes much longer to break down.
Sugar is the biggest problem.

I got fat because I ate too much. When I reduce what I eat - hey presto, as if by magic, I lose weight.

I don't know about morbidly obese people, I imagine if you get to that level of obesity there is something quite serious going on with you.
But for most people eating in moderation and being active is absolutely the key to a healthy life and weight. I used to have quite disordered eating (compulsive overeating, binging on sugar and carbs, bulimia) and when I decided to get my eating under control and started eating normally - I, unsurprising, did lose weight. As my goal was to get my eating normalised I have kept a healthy diet now for 20 years.
Training myself to eat normally and in moderation got rid of the cravings I had and put me in tune with my appetite. I think for most people this should be the goal of changing their eating habits rather than having the goal being to lose weight. The weight gain is just a product of something else which needs to be addressed.

It’s so hard. I lost around 2.5 stone on WW but found it very difficult once the points got cut. I know I had to cut points/calories to lose more weight but it’s difficult when you already feel like you’re restricting what you eat.

The thing about having to like being slim more than you like eating is so true. When I am successfully dieting or maintaining weight loss ‘Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels’ is easy to stick to. But sometimes it feels like an uphill struggle. Now at probably the heaviest I’ve ever been the thought of starting again is overwhelming. I think is it worth it? Should I just stay like this even though I’m miserable and it affects my health and confidence? It feels so unlikely I will ever get off the the 3 or 4 stone I need to. I don’t feel like the same person anymore.

The idea of fat cells not going away and my body fighting to gain weight is so depressing. I can see my son has put on weight since lockdown and it scares me. He was never an over eater. He would eat until full and leave food on his plate, and I’m worried something has changed. I’m desperate not to let him get overweight in childhood because of all the research. Although I was never an overweight child and struggle now.

It's scary how determined people are that "eat less move more" is the answer given the enormous failure rate

I find it more scary how determined people are that obese people just can't help it, its not their fault, dieting just won't work etc. This thread is ridiculous in the amount of excuses it contains.

In reality, fat people aren't fat for no reason. CICO works for the vast majority. Show me an obese 20 stone woman who's eating 1200 calories a day and exercising regularly yet just maintains a weight of 20 stone. You won't. Except very rare cases of serious medical issues.

We all know this. You can pull up any obscure medical studies you want, we all know obese people are usually obese for a very good reason. Yes there will be lots of psychological and MH reasons for obesity but on a purely physical level, it's really not confusing or unexplainable why someone is fat in most cases.

I can't see how making all the excuses under the sun is in obese people's interests to be honest.

Trouble is the flawed science behind it. Different types of calories have different effects on the body. Originally, calories were worked out simply by burning different types of food and measuring the heat given off, i.e. energy. Since then, scientists have discovered that not all calories are equal. So CICO is too simplistic. But as with a lot of things, people aren't generally intelligent enough to understand more complex matters, so the general public health message continues to be CICO because the message is simple enough for everyone. Some people just concentrate/obsess on calorie counting rather than having a proper balanced diet - a higher balance diet would probably be far better for more people than a strict low calorie diet that isn't balanced.