To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

@nonevernotever

news.sky.com/story/overeating-not-the-primary-cause-of-obesity-claim-scientists-12406990 this article was fascinating and supports the low carb no processed model

Thanks, I will check that out

It's all a lot more complex than eating too much and not moving enough. People need to examine their relationship with food and how they got to the point that they are at. It needs a complete lifestyle overhaul and often some kind of therapy and support to be really successful, which is not that easy or accessible.

A small number of MO people may be successful but the vast majority won’t be.

But I would also say that a lot of people who are overweight but not yet obese will also not succeed and that is why people keep having to go back to dieting.

It's hard to do all the time. Surgery is a tool just like all the other diet tools. I totally understand if it becomes the best tool to reduce all the other issues with MO like diabetes etc but ultimately I don't think it is a magic bullet either and you still need to change behaviours for good to ultimately stop weight gain.

Low carb no processed DOES have to become a way of life in my opinion. Loads of fruit and veg, fish, lean meat, beans, peas lentils, tofu, bring careful about oils and fats as well.

It's worked for me for about ten years.

This is an excellent lecture from a researcher in the mechanics and genetics of weight. Although he's an academic the lecture is very accessible.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=GQJ0Z0DRumg&t=2218s

I think the mindset has to be a change of life rather than a diet. Slim people mostly eat low carb no processed in my experience. Small portions. Big spaces between meals.

It has always worked for me as I’m unable to defy the laws of physics.

A friend had weight loss surgery, he lost a significant amount of weight until he learned how to eat around his gastric band. If you’re a binge eater surgery will not change your behaviour.

@Sparklfairy

The idea of your body 'adapting' or having a 'set point' is flawed too though. What happens is that as you lose weight, your body needs fewer calories in order to function. So if you go from 15st to 10st, but then go back to eating your old 15st diet then you'll put all the weight back on, faster than before. You also burn fewer calories as you get older. My very short, slim DM in her sixties burns hardly anything (around 1100) a day if she doesn't exercise. I'm taller, heavier and younger (obviously!) and burn 1500-1600 with no exercise.

There is no simple black and white answer, and CICO is overly simplistic, but if you do want to oversimplify things then yes, people are overweight because they eat too much. That's not helpful at all though!

Not quite. Scientific research shows that the regain cannot be explained just by the reduction in body size. The body makes a conscious effort to regain the weight and it’s also not true that all dieters ‘go back to their 15 stone diet’. It’s that they are fighting a total uphill battle because their bodies are doing everything, including sending very powerful hunger signals to the brain, to get the weight back on again. That makes it impossible to maintain the lower weight, no matter how much someone wants to do that.

Basically to be slim you have to stop focussing on food and especially high carb high fat high sugar foods as a source of reward and comfort or as a key activity in your life. You have to eat to live.

The problem is not losing the weight, it is keeping it off long term, which requires a huge shift of mindset and an acceptance that basically you simply cannot eat anywhere near as much as you want to. For people who love food and sweet, rich food especially, this is really hard as it can feel you are taking the joy out of life.

The people who do best tend to be those who manage to get to the stage where their fitness improves and they really enjoy exercise, as by doing plenty of exercise this enables you to eat with far less restriction without gaining weight.

That makes it impossible to maintain the lower weight, no matter how much someone wants to do that.

It's not impossible. A family friend did it. She was quite large but lost a lot in her thirties and is still slim in her 60s.

You have to really really want it. You have to want to look and feel that way more than you want to eat.

My body starts to want more food when I've regained a certain amount of weight- the increase in fat cells apparently causes an increase in hunger

It's very true that you have to really love being light and slim and agile more than you want to eat.

@Simonjt

It has always worked for me as I’m unable to defy the laws of physics.

A friend had weight loss surgery, he lost a significant amount of weight until he learned how to eat around his gastric band. If you’re a binge eater surgery will not change your behaviour.

Here the insinuation is that fat people are deluded and think they can cheat physics or something. It’s way way more complex than that which you can see when a 20 stone person has gastric surgery, meaning that they can now only eat 800 cals a day. According to ‘the laws of physics’, they should continue to lose and lose weight, yet their body usually stops at say 13 stone. But they’re still eating tiny portions but do not lose any more weight. So much of obesity is also genetic but people don’t want to admit that because it suits everyone better to pretend that fat people are just lazy and undisciplined and have brought their problems on themselves.

I feel very sorry for children who are raised fat and become fat adults- they have no experience of a normal size and weight, or what's its like to move around without being conscious of body weight.

This book is so good on this subject: Why We eat (too much)

It is all about weight set points which are influenced by our genes, conditions in the womb, the food environment through life, stress and exercise habits. The body makes it very hard to fight against the set point in either direction by changing the basal metabolic rate and adjusting our appetites to ensure we stay at that weight in the same way as thirst and making urine keep us correctly hydrated. We can become resistant to a hormone which is supposed to be telling the brain when we have enough fat stored. It also talks about how bariatric surgery works which has a lot to do with removing part of the stomach that produces hunger hormones and getting food more quickly to the small intestine where hormones are produced that make us feel full.

We can change our own food environment, stress (reduce this somehow) and exercise (especially strength training to build muscle) and according the book it is not about restricting calories but about eating the right things ( omega 3 fats, fresh unprocessed food especially grass fed meat) and avoiding the wrong things (too much omega 6 such as in vegetable oils and grains, processed food, sugar and wheat)

I started doing cico a few days ago. I’m obese but I’m not all that focussed on the actual weight loss element. I will always be fat and I’m fine with that, what I need is to be healthier, eat healthier things and get my energy levels up by moving more. Any weight I lose is a bonus. It’s in this way that I hope to keep my motivation up, not deny myself completely the odd treat and just try and treat my body better

The only way I lose weight is fasting. I am low carb. No sugar at all. Mainly vegetable for carbs. No alcohol. If I fast the weight falls off me.

@Honestopinion23 I was a fat person until about 18, I decided not to be fat anymore and changed my lifestyle, never carried too much body fat since then.

@Joystir59

It's very true that you have to really love being light and slim and agile more than you want to eat.

True although if your body is intent on making you fat again, it doesn’t matter how much you love being slim. So many binge eaters actually hate what they are doing and hate the food, yet they are unable to stop. Willpower is not the secret to weight loss. People who think it is are usually ones who don’t face the cravings that someone whose body is trying to make them gain weight does.

I have been cleaning up my act food-wise and recently went no processed, low carb, no dairy and pretty much just one meal a day - meat and vegetables, stir fried - for four weeks. When I experimented with carbs again, WOW! The sudden drops in mood, the cravings, the 'hangover' feelings were so noticeable - and that had been just ordinary life before. It's hard to acknowledge, but it is a sort of form of self-poisoning.

I'm a big believer in building and maintaining muscle, especially for women, for so many reasons, keeping your metabolism burning sweetly is just one of them. I hardly ever see it recommended by diet 'experts' though.

@SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun

This book is so good on this subject: Why We eat (too much)

It is all about weight set points which are influenced by our genes, conditions in the womb, the food environment through life, stress and exercise habits. The body makes it very hard to fight against the set point in either direction by changing the basal metabolic rate and adjusting our appetites to ensure we stay at that weight in the same way as thirst and making urine keep us correctly hydrated. We can become resistant to a hormone which is supposed to be telling the brain when we have enough fat stored. It also talks about how bariatric surgery works which has a lot to do with removing part of the stomach that produces hunger hormones and getting food more quickly to the small intestine where hormones are produced that make us feel full.

We can change our own food environment, stress (reduce this somehow) and exercise (especially strength training to build muscle) and according the book it is not about restricting calories but about eating the right things ( omega 3 fats, fresh unprocessed food especially grass fed meat) and avoiding the wrong things (too much omega 6 such as in vegetable oils and grains, processed food, sugar and wheat)

Yes, it’s a great book. I wish more doctors thought like this, rather than telling patients to go to Slimming World and cut down on fat.

I am also a bit of a binge eater but I am lucky that as someone who lives alone I control what’s in my home. If I don’t buy it at the supermarket then I can’t eat it at home. So as long as I have self control whilst shopping I should be able to break my binge habits

Watching with interest.