To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

I do think I need to shake up my friends as some of them are not helping my ability to change and have noticed they’re adopting ‘feeder’ personalities trying to get me to eat cake and stuff I don’t want to eat. We hardly ever discuss the friends who consciously or subconsciously try to sabotage us either and it’s extremely common too

Very true and a lot of this is due to our culture. We seem to centre everything around food and some people take personal offence if someone doesn't want to eat something. I don't know what insecurity it triggers in them but I have had friends try to push cakes on me. Before reducing carbs, I usually caved because my days were spent craving sweets and pizza but now I have a 'meh' attitude to it. I'd honestly rather have some nice cheese. It really seems to piss people off though and it's as if I am personally offending them by not putting something in my mouth. Odd.

That doesn't explain it and is far too simplistic because they body can adapt to exist on levels that are below what someone could maintain. So yeah, the 'laws of physics' theory works great if you have a normal body that maintains at 1900 calories or something. Not so much if your body has adapted itself so that you could eat 700 calories and still not lose anything. Also, it's kinda like saying 'a human can hold their breath for half an hour - all they need to do is not breathe'. Well, yeah, except your body will take over and make you take a breath before you pass out. You can try to resist that bodily urge if you like but chances are you won't manage it for long.

The laws of physics works great for everything. If you think you have a body that goes against the most fundamental rules of the universe, please present yourself to the nearest university, I'm sure they'd be fascinated.

Yes, some people do need to consume much less energy than others in order to lose weight. I never said otherwise. That still does not alter the fact that you can't gain weight if you're not consuming the energy to lay down the mass and vice versa.

It is incredibly difficult if your BMR is very very low and you need/want to lose weight. It must be torture. But you're still bound by the laws of thermodynamics.

In the 70s and before there was less snacking, people would have three meals a day. There were also less ultraprocessed foods. The combination of these causes higher insulin levels, leading to weight gain.

What didn't happen in the 70s and 80s was a complete loss of self control by a large portion of the population as most seem to believe.

@piscis

Absolutely. The Obesity code explains this very well (Jason Fung). I lost a lot of weight eating more calories than ever and zero exercise. It completely changed my appetite and hunger. Liberating.

Love that book. I just wish there were more doctors and dieticians like him. It just makes me want to weep when I see trained dieticians saying that toast and a glass of OJ is a great way to start the day. Oh and that eating doughnuts and chocolate as a 'treat' is important because it means our diet is 'balanced'.

I agree it's not as simple as CICO. Not all food is going to metabolised by the body in the same way. Fruit and veg calories are mainly fibre, so the body will have to work harder to process these. You also get more for your calories so you can fill up.

To maintain a healthy weight you just can't eat loads of processed crap IME. Healthy meals, with more protein and veg works for me. I eat potatoes, pasta, rice but avoid bread type carbs. I don't calorie count. I'm not tiny, but BMI is 21. I do SW which is this really with measured 'treats'.

@Namelessnancy

In the 70s and before there was less snacking, people would have three meals a day. There were also less ultraprocessed foods. The combination of these causes higher insulin levels, leading to weight gain.

What didn't happen in the 70s and 80s was a complete loss of self control by a large portion of the population as most seem to believe.

Yes, it's so easy to think that overweight people are out of control gorgers who shovel fast food in their faces all the time. Actually, the average calorie consumption hasn't changed hugely since pre-obesity epidemic, yet the number of overweight or obese people has skyrocketed.

Oh and don't even lets start on the "all calories are the same" shit and the idea that the body will react to 100 calories in haribo the same as in broccoli.

The calories go in but then they can either be burned or stored.

I live with 3 very slim people and I see what they eat and the complete lack of exercise (particularly one of them) they do. I honestly think one of these scientists would find them fascinating. I can't exercise at the moment (medical reasons) and am climbing the walls and then I wonder how do they cope with no (or very little) exercise. If you saw them you would think they are athletes - muscle definition etc ...

Anyway in short I think obesity and weight is at more complex than scientists understand and a few are exploring it and starting to understand. For example my example above would probably be explained by genetics. And I can see that because a grandparent was exactly the same.

But I know loads of slim people who restrict what they eat in order to not gain weight

The laws of physics works great for everything. If you think you have a body that goes against the most fundamental rules of the universe, please present yourself to the nearest university, I'm sure they'd be fascinated.

Yes, some people do need to consume much less energy than others in order to lose weight. I never said otherwise. That still does not alter the fact that you can't gain weight if you're not consuming the energy to lay down the mass and vice versa.

It is incredibly difficult if your BMR is very very low and you need/want to lose weight. It must be torture. But you're still bound by the laws of thermodynamics.

Nobody has actually said that people are defying the laws of physics. That phrase is always trotted out though to suggest that someone who struggles with their weight is lying/in denial about what they eat and that they MUST be gorging on McDonalds if they're not losing weight. The thing is that the laws of thermodynamics allows some people to eat a satiating amount of food whereas other people's bodies are literally battling them every second of the day. That's why comments about physics are so unhelpful because they assume that everyone has the same physical makeup and that everyone's bodies will respond in the same way.

Andrew Jenkinson is also worth a read (why we eat too much). He's a bariatric surgeon and covers some really interesting stuff about weight gain, why surgery is effective etc.

Surely it's the maintaining part that is difficult. I put weight on over lockdown so have now cut back. I can't go back to what I was eating during lockdown or I will gain weight hence why I gained it in the first place.

@Namelessnancy

Oh and don't even lets start on the "all calories are the same" shit and the idea that the body will react to 100 calories in haribo the same as in broccoli.

The calories go in but then they can either be burned or stored.

Yes, I can't even with that one... I recently saw a well-known PT on Instagram rant that 'a calorie is a calorie' in response to an informative article which talked about the different reactions of different foods on the body. I am quite worried that people like him hold themselves out as being helpful to overweight and obese people when they have such poor understanding of how food works on the body.

Take a look at this if you want an explanation for how calories in calories out is unhelpful. No breaking of the laws of physics...

@wellards

Surely it's the maintaining part that is difficult. I put weight on over lockdown so have now cut back. I can't go back to what I was eating during lockdown or I will gain weight hence why I gained it in the first place.

But it's also the case that the reduced calorie diet stops working (and this cannot be solely explained by the person now having lower body mass). It's also not the case that all dieters go back to their old diets. Many don't, yet they still gain weight again because their bodies have adapted to resist weight loss. And sometimes, the maintenance calories are at a level that the body will not accept, so it constantly tries to encourage overeating.

[quote Namelessnancy]Take a look at this if you want an explanation for how calories in calories out is unhelpful. No breaking of the laws of physics...

[/quote] Thanks, will have a look.

It's simplistic but actually it's correct, eat less calories than you need for living and you do loose weight. Most people undercount the calories they eat and over estimate the calories they use which is the main reason diets fail.

It's scary how determined people are that "eat less move more" is the answer given the enormous failure rate. Does anyone think there is a single obese person who has not tried this? Are all of these people weak willed? How can you explain success and drive in other parts of their lives?

But it's also the case that the reduced calorie diet stops working (and this cannot be solely explained by the person now having lower body mass). It's also not the case that all dieters go back to their old diets. Many don't, yet they still gain weight again because their bodies have adapted to resist weight loss. And sometimes, the maintenance calories are at a level that the body will not accept, so it constantly tries to encourage overeating.

But likewise if slim people overeat particularly as they get older they will gain weight.

Obviously really low calorie diets aren't probably the best method.

It's fairly obvious to me that equating calorie counts on different .foods is a bit mad.

Calories absorbed from a pulverised food with low fibre is going to be more akin in a body to it's laboratory calorimeter reading than calories absorbed from fibrous whole foods, say seeds. Or Am I missing something?

I am lucky in that I have never been overweight, and when I was younger I could eat what I liked. Now I am in my 50s and although I am still slim I have to watch what I eat as your metabolism slows as you get older. I rarely eat biscuits, chocolate, cake, crisps, chips or sweets. I try to eat natural unprocessed food, and tend to stick to 80% healthy, 20% unhealthy, and that works for me. My weakness is sweets, if I had a packet in the house I would have to eat them until they were gone so I don't buy them to avoid the temptation.

@Lockheart, Michael Mosley has presented papers, has have many others to show why CICO don't work and it would take years for the body to catch up and start to lose weight, meanwhile you would become malnourished. So while posters on here might not be able to present research, many who can, have.

To a certain extent I think you're right. I'm slim now in my 40s and it's relatively easy to maintain, if I put on a few pounds I 'eat less and move more' for a bit and can usually shift it. If I lose a bit too much (illness/stress etc) then I can do the reverse.

BUT I've always been a healthy weight and probably mainly on the slimmer side of average. I think CICO and 'eat less move more' are pretty much what people of a healthy weight do constantly and subconsciously to maintain their weight. So it does 'work' for a lot of people.

However, if you are obese and certainly if you have been overweight for a long long time, then it's a whole different ball game and the same things simply will not work. Your whole metabolism and relationship to eating is different and a different approach is needed.

I personally really wish there was more emphasis on prevention. I mean, from childhood. If you can live your life never being obese in the first place then it's relatively easy to manage your weight, but so many people don't understand how to apply the basics of nutrition or exercise and the effects of obesity on the body, it really is something that should be taught. And then there's the emotional side of disordered eating which there is basically no support for.

I rarely eat biscuits, chocolate, cake, crisps, chips or sweets. I try to eat natural unprocessed food, and tend to stick to 80% healthy, 20% unhealthy, and that works for me.

Whether you were always slim or have lost weight you need to stick to the above for life otherwise weight gain is inevitable.

" I rarely eat biscuits, chocolate, cake, crisps, chips or sweets"

Neither do I, yet I'm overweight in my 50's. I'm finding that I can't even eat normally. My diet has to be no dairy and low processed carbs. Calories aren't as important as nutritional content.