We fecking told you so. Brexit making us suffer.

[flashbac]

Project Fear you said. Sunlit Uplands you said. Sovereignty you said. Can I buy food and heat my house with Sovereignty? Can I put sovereignty in my car's fuel tank? Can I?

It was common sense that this would happen. Common SENSE.

TAKE BACK CONTROL. How's it going? Total fuck up? Of course it is, it's not a surprise is it?

Beg to differ re the NHS being as bad during labour. In my experience it wasn’t and I still work in it. But hey you carry on the lie that it’s just financial mismanagement that’s the source of the NHS’s ills. All it needs is a rehaul again for the 20th time…..

@caravanman IMO those who voted Brexit did so to address problems caused by austerity.

Unfortunately many are blaming Covid, the EU or the deal and not Brexit (see June Mummery) for the problems and not Brexit itself.

@Stasiland I agree. I also remember that pre Labour the NHS (I was an asthmatic child often in hosp) was much like it is now in terms of waiting times, resources etc.

@Stasiland

Beg to differ re the NHS being as bad during labour. In my experience it wasn’t and I still work in it. But hey you carry on the lie that it’s just financial mismanagement that’s the source of the NHS’s ills. All it needs is a rehaul again for the 20th time…..

You asked me a question, i answered you dont have to agree,, i was redeployed twice in twelve months, due tocuts under the caring, sharing Labour party

The govt has had five years to try to sort out the way we leave, but even a very competent govt would have struggled. People had no clue how intricately embedded so many areas of our lives were with EU laws and standards. It was one of the things Michael Dougan warned about pre referendum. The govt will spend all its time dealing with and paying for divergence instead of getting on with governing and investing in the future.
And this govt is spectacularly incompetent, so it’s no wonder we’re in trouble.

@Dragon50

FFS *@Rhubarbsoup*. Are you insinuating I don’t give a shit about the disadvantaged for their own sake?

To me, the society I live in should be progressive, not scrambling around in the gutter looking for a fiver to eat.

Do you really think I’m going to list out my full thoughts? My OP was in response to ‘why would Gary care?’

To widen my point, the social contract is broken. As a first world country we should have a strong public sector delivering services based on need.
I accept they made mistakes but things were better under Labour.

Yes it’s expensive in the short term but long term I believe it pays off as less poverty/poor care provision means a healthier (physically and mentally) society. Have you ever head about shit life syndrome? We shouldn’t have that.

One of the many reasons for the welfare state was that during WW1 honchos were horrified by the poor state of the soldiers who signed up.

Obviously it took a good while (an entire generation) but by the 60s the social contract was a strong safety net.

People bitch about those languishing on benefits. My response is usually

1. Lack of benefits affect us all
2. They don’t cost that much in terms of what you would have to put in place for desperate people if you don’t help them.
3. Have we looked at adult education provision so people can drag themselves up? It’s currently prohibitive to many.
4. Ive never needed to claim benefits that god, but as we saw last year, they need to be sufficient in case I ever need them.

I’m ashamed to live in a country that has more food banks than McDonalds.

The likes of Neville and Rashford etc aren’t happy about that and get called champagne socialists for bringing attention by some folk who vote Tory

Well no but your comment is very centred around how these people affect your life, which I imagine is how many people think, ifs human nature I expect.

Well no but your comment is very centred around how these people affect your life, which I imagine is how many people think, ifs human nature I expect.

No, it’s centred around how not having those provisions affect my life.

A decent social contract would mean he might be alive well and hopefully also productive, but also that I wouldn’t have been traumatised by seeing a man die in front my eyes before I started my day at work.

I’m human and not completely altruistic, my first thought is alway to me and mine.

Otherwise maybe my vote/vision would be to keep the rich rich as I might be like them one day.

Put it this way, should those in need for social care do without because the NI increase will mean MW Julie at no4 will have to shop at Lidl instead of Waitrose?

[quote onlychildhamster]@LobsterNapkin there would always be poorer countries. We should absolutely crack down on exploitative practices on immigrant workers but
it was their decision to come to the UK. It does benefit them and most of them had probably calculated that it was better than staying in their own countries.

We need workers due to the ageing population in the UK and rather than increase the UK birth rate, it's better to import immigrants who would have been born anyway.

I am an immigrant btw.[/quote]
I don't disagree, but it has to be done carefully or it's not good for anyone, and it's never going to be a whole solution. It's in direct conflict with the goal of uplifting other nations' economies, too. Because if that happened, most people would want to have a good job closer to their family rather than coming to the UK to drive a lorry or pick veg.

And being careful can't be done if it's not honest. Which is to say, telling people that it is having no effect on wages, or pretending that it's about being anti-racist. Immigration to fill the lower class sectors, or even technical sectors or small business owners or health care workers is not about being anti-racist. It's self-serving, and could easily be exploitative without real care.

@Dave20

Tonne fair, let’s be balanced here. Before we blame leaving the EU for all our problems. Norway and Switzerland are not part of the EI, but are obviously in Europe. These countries are wealthy and seem to do quite well being out of the EU club. Likewise what about independent countries, like Canada and Australia? They seem to manage quite well being independent trading countries. Maybe it’s down to poor negotiating from our politicians that’s caused our problems.

Most of these countries do belong to trading blocks as well. Here in Canada we have a Canada/US/Mexico trading block. Australia is also in some sort of trading block I believe.

They have some differences with the EU arrangement, but basically they are all versions of Free Trade which began to be pushed in the early 80s by the Thatcher/Reagan types. So no protectionism, and a lot of management of trade happens outside the political level. It's possible for a company to sue a nation if it loses out due to environmental regs, for example.

Realistically, there is really no other model on offer right now in western countries, so it's difficult to imagine there won't just be something similar for the UK despite Brexit. The deregulation/trickle down advocates won the day so completely. But it's possible that's changing, the public mood seems to be changing anyway.

Yep. I told you so. Repeatedly. No surprise what's happening.

I think the UK took its EU obligations too seriously.

The French were the absolute champions at pushing for their own people at the top of EU institutions, and then quietly ignoring the rules that they signed up for. They also have the benefit of a language opaque to most of the poorer nations.

The EU, though, still retains the problems it had as soon as it signed up countries with very different wealth and laws. At some point it will either have to split or ‘deepen’ (tax harmony, full freedom of movement etc).

It is totally disingenuous to claim that EU membership did not deprive UK citizens of jobs or wage bargaining power. Living in London, being served by an English waiter/waitress was as rare as not having mineral water pushed on you. And these were not people who did the job better, some could scarcely speak English-they just did it cheaper. That is noticeably changing now.

The EU country I lived in, Spain, currently has a massive problem with soaring energy prices- the newspaper El Pais is reporting that at the moment they are the highest they have ever been.

Spain also has very very high unemployment rates- atm over 16% and youth unemployment is 35%- and 35% is the lowest it has been for years. So yes are facing some very serious problems at the moment. There's also a political crisis there with the leader of the Catalan separatist movement arrested and facing jail.

@EatSleepRantRepeat

If people had spent the last 5 years doing proper planning instead of batching and trying to overturn the result, recruiting and training British people in shortage jobs, and paying people decent wages in the first place we wouldn't be in such a mess. I'm not willing to live in a country which runs on exploiting poor Eastern Europeans and migrants because we won't pay the going rate for goods and services.

Exactly. There have been so many lorry drivers trying to explain that it's the conditions they have to work in which has caused a lot to rethink their jobs. As for letting European drivers in to sort the issue out how will that even work? If I were a Polish driver they'd be tld to get to fuck.

As others have said. We should have and still should train people and pay them properly. Not rely on cheap foreign labour.
My DS is trying hard for a job but no-one can be arsed to train him. Easier to rely on cheap labour.
That was WHY people voted for Brexit. Because their jobs, training and values were not respected. Good workers couldn't comeplte, (tax, insurance, cost of living, decent training) with cheap labour from EU sending Tax credits back "home" that were hugely valuable due to low Cost of Living there.
That's why future British plumbers and drivers and electricians all tried to go university or never got off benefits. They saw no future and got no training.
The Brext came and we didn't plan for it.

@KikoLemons

As others have said. We should have and still should train people and pay them properly. Not rely on cheap foreign labour. My DS is trying hard for a job but no-one can be arsed to train him. Easier to rely on cheap labour. That was WHY people voted for Brexit. Because their jobs, training and values were not respected. Good workers couldn't comeplte, (tax, insurance, cost of living, decent training) with cheap labour from EU sending Tax credits back "home" that were hugely valuable due to low Cost of Living there. That's why future British plumbers and drivers and electricians all tried to go university or never got off benefits. They saw no future and got no training. The Brext came and we didn't plan for it.

This ^

For personally selfish reasons I'd like to have freedom of movement. I'd love to be able to buy a home in Europe and easily move there, without concerns about residency visas, etc. But - I'm aware enough to acknowledge that's a privileged point of view.

Constant reliance on exploiting cheap labour (British or migrant) is a ponzi scheme. Wages go down whilst the cost of housing including for rent goes up (due to increased demand). Then no-one wants to do those poverty wage shit conditions jobs. Because they can't afford to live on those jobs. It's a vicious circle.

Unemployment is high right now. But people need to earn enough to live on. Pay the rent or mortgage, buy food, afford the gas and electric bills, etc. Funnily enough they also want tolerable working conditions.

What we actually need to do is pay fair wages, offer civilised working conditions - and tackle the public health housing and homelessness emergency.

Train people up. There's enough of them in need of work and decent employment opportunities.

www.standard.co.uk/topic/belvedere

This tragic story is a big reason why fewer foreign workers want to come here btw. It's not Brexit in many cases.

The poor man above wasn't from the EU. He was from Ukraine but the same issues are relevant. He'd only been here a few weeks. It's terrible.

I personally know several EU workers who've gone back to Europe. They already have UK visas, but they very understandably don't want to be in the country with one of the highest rates of Covid and increased knife and gun crime. Add in the public health housing emergency, and we're not an appealing destination.

Freedom of movement is not for the privileged. Remember the 80s when our construction workers worked in Germany to get a wage? It’s not all about having a home abroad. And a year abroad should not be something that’s seen as only being for the privileged either. Erasmus made it accessible and imaginable for kids from poorer backgrounds. The privileged will always be able to ensure their kids benefit from it. Now that’s gone for lower income kids.

Freedom of movement is not for the privileged. Remember the 80s when our construction workers worked in Germany to get a wage?

Exactly it benefits the privileged. Some people enjoy travel and working abroad. Adventure, wanderlust, etc. But many don't. They don't want to leave their families and children to live in crappy shared lodgings in an unfamiliar place. For many it's a lonely and isolating experience. If they'd had the choice, the majority would've chosen a job in this country so that they could live with their spouse and children. That there were no jobs and/or only jobs paying poverty wage in the UK isn't something to champion.

There's a world of difference between choosing to work abroad versus being forced to because of lack of home opportunities.

Exploitation of cheap labour benefits only those doing the exploiting (employers and slum landlords).

Erasmus made it accessible and imaginable for kids from poorer backgrounds. The privileged will always be able to ensure their kids benefit from it. Now that’s gone for lower income kids.

A family friend grew up in the 40s on a very deprived social housing estate. Left school at 15. They travelled across Europe - and beyond - in the 60s. It was actually easier and cheaper then than it was in the 90s.

Like I said, personally I'd like freedom of movement. I want to buy a house in Europe and be able to easily permanently move there. But I'm aware and honest enough to admit that's coming from a privileged position.

@onlychildhamster that article is from 2018…..

@Tealightsandd

www.standard.co.uk/topic/belvedere

This tragic story is a big reason why fewer foreign workers want to come here btw. It's not Brexit in many cases.

The poor man above wasn't from the EU. He was from Ukraine but the same issues are relevant. He'd only been here a few weeks. It's terrible.

I personally know several EU workers who've gone back to Europe. They already have UK visas, but they very understandably don't want to be in the country with one of the highest rates of Covid and increased knife and gun crime. Add in the public health housing emergency, and we're not an appealing destination.

Horrendous. His poor family.

Freedom of movement is not for the privileged, it enables workers to travel easily and get paid. Builders, plumbers, care workers, drivers, hospitality, chefs - all travelled across Europe.

Unless these days having a basic job has become a 'privilege'

Of course tourists, students and rich people also travelled.

But we all were told that ending free movement would harm the UK economy, be ause migrant workers pay more in that they take out.

Just the bastard Brexit voters refuse to listen to reality and here we are - staff shortages, food rotting in fields, supply issues and a smaller economy.

If you voted for Brexit - you voted to make yourself poorer. So well done you.

Being able, through freedom of movement, to work in Germany in the 80s gave British workers a way of surviving when there was no hope for them here.

Great that the people you know could travel round Europe in the 60s. It will be much more difficult for lower income kids today, when jobs have to be advertised for EU citizens first. Some of them with pre-existing medical conditions may even struggle for a short trip without EHIC. Middle class kids will be just fine, as will middle class people wanting a home abroad, who will be able to afford the Visas and medical insurance.

We are literally the South Park of the world.