We fecking told you so. Brexit making us suffer.

[flashbac]

Project Fear you said. Sunlit Uplands you said. Sovereignty you said. Can I buy food and heat my house with Sovereignty? Can I put sovereignty in my car's fuel tank? Can I?

It was common sense that this would happen. Common SENSE.

I'm not willing to live in a country which runs on exploiting poor Eastern European's and migrants because we won't pay the going rate for goods and services.

Hear hear. It's ironic that it's mostly remainers who insist they are oh-so-caring about workers from other countries. Most of the complaints on this thread are about inconvenience to oneself. There are actually worse HGV driver shortages in Germany and Poland, clearly not due to Brexit.

There are many British qualified HGV drivers who aren't currently working in the industry. They left the industry as they were undercut. Opportunistic employers found workers who would understandably work for less, to send money to their family in another country where it was worth far more in real terms.

Haulage companies have had plenty of time to adapt and improve their employment offers, but the government could have helped them more. A phased roll out of better wages and conditions, a large-scale recruitment drive. Obviously the pandemic hasn't helped, to say the least. Money rightly had to go to Health first, and lockdowns and furloughing disrupted most businesses.

@toocold54

I suspect the lorry drivers applying for jobs paying £50k plus, with decent working conditions, are not complaining.

Please show me where the jobs advertising for lorry drivers that actually pay £50k plus are as I would be happy to apply?!

I know of 3 people who used to work as lorry drivers and were all ‘capable’ of making make £24k+ But this was in fact impossible to do unless they worked 6+ hours of overtime everyday which I believe is actually illegal as you can only drive a certain amount of hours a day.
They are given a time limit to do a certain amount of deliveries and it is almost impossible to get them done within your working hours.
I didn’t realise how bad delivery driving had become until quite recently.

Yes exactly, and conditions on the road are crap.

If we want to carry on transporting a lot by road (which presumably we do), the most sustainable thing is to invest in making changes that will attract a new generation of drivers, and retain and lure back the qualified ones we have already. At a minimum:

Companies should fund initial training, even if it has a return of service attached ie if you don't do x years you pay y percentage back- this opens training to a much wider range of people.

Medicals should be funded, or at the very least at minimal cost.

Less restrictive targets for deliveries, I know of course they aren't going to pay drivers to chill out, but now every minute is accounted for, every movement tracked, micro managing to the extreme and takes away a lot of what made the job appealing which was a bit of freedom. As long as the deliveries get done safely and in reasonable time, what's the issue.

Better and cheaper facilities such as showers and food at services, and sufficient numbers of safe parking so people aren't having to park up in laybys for the night, or shit at the side of the road as the toilets are closed.

Look into how to make rotas more family friendly. Some might not mind long periods away from home, but a lot leave because they reach a point they don't want that anymore, there must be a more effective way to manage manpower.

You need to understand the transport system to understand why Brexit has a role but its not just Brexit. But don't take my word for it - read what the Haulage Association says about it. They have been telling the government for months that there was a problem - the new IR35 tax changes had a significant impact because the drivers earned less so left the industry, the lockdowns had an impact because replacement drivers could not be trained or tested, the pandemic had an impact because people wanted more home deliveries and yes Brexit had an impact because some drivers went home. The UK needs 100,000 more drivers - only about 12,000 went home because of Brexit. My husband hires haulage drivers so I know more than most.

This is exert from the Haulage Driver's Association press release published in April calling on the government saying the IR35 changes was really hurting the industry and calling on the government to act. Really if its anyone's fault the government has failed to act quickly enough.

28 Apr 2021 Posted By Josh Reynolds
The RHA is calling for urgent Government action to ease a growing crisis in driver shortages ~ made worse by the introduction of IR35 tax changes. Pallet firms in particular are having to extend-next day deliveries by up to five days.

The situation was critical even before the pandemic with many EU truckers heading home for obvious Brexit-related reasons. Add to that the complete failure to test new drivers during lockdown which left a backlog of thousands of tests - and potential drivers sidelined.
Covid-19 saw the introduction of IR35 delayed by one year but it’s now hitting many firms and drivers.

Full press release published here.
www.rha.uk.net/news/news-blogs-and-press-releases/press-releases/detail/driver-shortages-ir35-and-what-the-rha-wants

Leave voters. You could not make them up.

How many rich Etonians do you know care about you and your family’s circumstances?

How many self-righteous well-heeled champagne socialists do you know care about yours?

@Itinerary

How many rich Etonians do you know care about you and your family’s circumstances?

How many self-righteous well-heeled champagne socialists do you know care about yours?

Gary Neville summed this up. Something along the lines of “yes, I’m a champagne socialist and I want everyone to be able to drink champagne if they work hard for it”.

That’s not the philosophy of the Tories. It’s built into them that there will always always be poor people and no amount of anything will help them. Which is a pretty nasty way to think really.

yes, I’m a champagne socialist and I want everyone to be able to drink champagne if they work hard for it

You know that's not economically possible though, right? Wages for the producers of luxury goods have to be too low to actually afford them otherwise the price would spiral. Its a good example of why there will always be relative poverty. Champagne takes years to make and age in the cellars, plus the cost of the land and chemicals needed to grow them (and reserves in case of bad harvests). If the price was low enough for the grape pickers to buy willy nilly like some on here, they'd go under.

Look at UK childcare for a better example - nannies quite rightly want a liveable wage, then mums on here complain that their own liveable wage goes straight into the nanny's pocket.

@EatSleepRantRepeat

yes, I’m a champagne socialist and I want everyone to be able to drink champagne if they work hard for it

You know that's not economically possible though, right? Wages for the producers of luxury goods have to be too low to actually afford them otherwise the price would spiral. Its a good example of why there will always be relative poverty. Champagne takes years to make and age in the cellars, plus the cost of the land and chemicals needed to grow them (and reserves in case of bad harvests). If the price was low enough for the grape pickers to buy willy nilly like some on here, they'd go under.

Look at UK childcare for a better example - nannies quite rightly want a liveable wage, then mums on here complain that their own liveable wage goes straight into the nanny's pocket.

Who said it’s not economically possible?

The Tories who want to keep it that way

It is possible for everyone to have a decent standard of living.

It is possible for people to have different standards of living. This isn’t about everyone having champagne, it’s about everyone having the chance to.

Under the current system we have, it’s very difficult to accumulate wealth unless you already have it. That’s what Conservativism does - it preserves the wealthy, even if they really no longer should have it any more. Look at land as the obvious example. What reason is there for the Royal Family to continue to have all that land and property for example? Other than by dint of birth?

This isn’t about giving handouts. It’s about giving people opportunities. Genuine opportunity

'champagne socialists' What's wrong with somebody well off wanting others to be affluent too or at least able to live a decent life ? But that awful british tendency to love doffing your cap at your social betters means you prefer toffs who've never known a days hardship. How weird....

Gary Neville’s article. I found myself nodding to a lot of it!

I’m a Prosecco socialist and I care about you and your family.

Why?

Because I walk among you.

No point in me having a good life if I’m affected by the disadvantages around me, robbed by the desperate, infected by people who have to work while ill, seeing a homeless person die at 9am outside my office ( pre pandemic).

I want my hospital clean, and my Waitrose staffed.

And… in case my life turns to shit (illness/death/divorce/fire and yes Im insured) I want a safety net in place.

There are loads of reasons as to why a well to do socialist will care about those less well off.

@Dragon50

I’m a Prosecco socialist and I care about you and your family.

Why?

Because I walk among you.

No point in me having a good life if I’m affected by the disadvantages around me, robbed by the desperate, infected by people who have to work while ill, seeing a homeless person die at 9am outside my office ( pre pandemic).

I want my hospital clean, and my Waitrose staffed.

And… in case my life turns to shit (illness/death/divorce/fire and yes Im insured) I want a safety net in place.

There are loads of reasons as to why a well to do socialist will care about those less well off.

This a million times

Ah, the Gary Neville that was brought up in the nice middle class village of Greenmount whose father was already well known locally as the being the chairman of Bury Football club, i was also brought up in Greenmount there are very few if any people that struggle financially., Although my circumstances are very different to his now

@Dragon50

I’m a Prosecco socialist and I care about you and your family.

Why?

Because I walk among you.

No point in me having a good life if I’m affected by the disadvantages around me, robbed by the desperate, infected by people who have to work while ill, seeing a homeless person die at 9am outside my office ( pre pandemic).

I want my hospital clean, and my Waitrose staffed.

And… in case my life turns to shit (illness/death/divorce/fire and yes Im insured) I want a safety net in place.

There are loads of reasons as to why a well to do socialist will care about those less well off.

At least you're honest that its for purely selfish reasons I guess!

If you're disabled in this country you'd be lucky to get a glass of schloer, let alone have a chance at champagne.

@Rhubarbsoup I guess there is an element of me primarily caring for me and mine if that’s your take but what’s the alternative?

Fuck the poor, disadvantaged etc because I’m alright Jack?

Isn’t that selfishness too?

[quote Dragon50]@Rhubarbsoup I guess there is an element of me primarily caring for me and mine if that’s your take but what’s the alternative?

Fuck the poor, disadvantaged etc because I’m alright Jack?

Isn’t that selfishness too?[/quote]
I guess that people genuinely believe that in a first world country- one of the wealthiest in the world that everyone should have access to safe shelter, food, and can access adequate education rather than just what they offer you as a person ie you want them to be able to serve you and not impinge on your lifestyle.

@Itinerary

How many rich Etonians do you know care about you and your family’s circumstances?

How many self-righteous well-heeled champagne socialists do you know care about yours?

Not saying the stereotypes are true, but are Tories and champagne socialist comparable?

A Tory is someone motivated by their own self-interest. Working class Tories usually duped into voting against it.

Champagne socialist is someone interested in the social good, and so votes against their self-interest.

I am not sure Boris's new emergency visa will fix anything at all. If it is targeted at the EU population that left, these men went back home for a reason, not because they lost their right to stay here. Usually they were sole breadwinners for their families, so it is quite unlikely that they just proudly decided not to work and are sitting on their arses now - it is a luxury rarely available outside a few select countries.
I think it is very unlikely they will be lured back by a promise of a short-term work visa to the UK.
If it is targeted at other non EU countries - which ones then?

[quote worriedatthemoment]@Bunnyfuller have you seen how many qualified hgv drivers we actually have ? More than enough to cover the gaps but they have chose to go and work elsewhere
This is more than just brexit , we would still be short , if you can't see that then your not listening to the actual drivers and companies, you know the ones who actually know
Your taxes will never likely pay for your childs education along with everything else such as nhs etc , unless your in the highest band , most of us will prob take more than we give in a lifetime
But if its so bad why would you wait ? Why not go now whilst your children can re settle and make friends , you could decide to go when their education is finished - they may decide not to go with you at this time though as will be old enough to make their own choices
I know many who voted brexit as well as remain and those that voted brexit knew their would be tough times as well , they didn't think overnight it would be perfect
I know a lot of eu citizens who have settled in uk and some who planned to but covid made them reconsider as suddenly visiting family became a lot harder
In this instance you cannot wholly blame brexit and need to look at all the causes of which there are many factors [/quote]
Don't bother they won't admit its a mixture of other factors, they want to cling onto their steadfast belief that brexit was bad for us.

@x2boys In previous posts I remember you saying you were a MH nurse. How are the tories doing with improving services ? I mean everyone is saying how much things have improved under them aren’t they ?
To suggest that the tories are the only option after 12 years of this inept lot is clearly misguided. I live in the NW and all I can see is years of neglect. Nothing to do with the EU.

FFS @Rhubarbsoup. Are you insinuating I don’t give a shit about the disadvantaged for their own sake?

To me, the society I live in should be progressive, not scrambling around in the gutter looking for a fiver to eat.

Do you really think I’m going to list out my full thoughts? My OP was in response to ‘why would Gary care?’

To widen my point, the social contract is broken. As a first world country we should have a strong public sector delivering services based on need.
I accept they made mistakes but things were better under Labour.

Yes it’s expensive in the short term but long term I believe it pays off as less poverty/poor care provision means a healthier (physically and mentally) society. Have you ever head about shit life syndrome? We shouldn’t have that.

One of the many reasons for the welfare state was that during WW1 honchos were horrified by the poor state of the soldiers who signed up.

Obviously it took a good while (an entire generation) but by the 60s the social contract was a strong safety net.

People bitch about those languishing on benefits. My response is usually

1. Lack of benefits affect us all
2. They don’t cost that much in terms of what you would have to put in place for desperate people if you don’t help them.
3. Have we looked at adult education provision so people can drag themselves up? It’s currently prohibitive to many.
4. Ive never needed to claim benefits that god, but as we saw last year, they need to be sufficient in case I ever need them.

I’m ashamed to live in a country that has more food banks than McDonalds.

The likes of Neville and Rashford etc aren’t happy about that and get called champagne socialists for bringing attention by some folk who vote Tory

[quote Stasiland]@x2boys In previous posts I remember you saying you were a MH nurse. How are the tories doing with improving services ? I mean everyone is saying how much things have improved under them aren’t they ?
To suggest that the tories are the only option after 12 years of this inept lot is clearly misguided. I live in the NW and all I can see is years of neglect. Nothing to do with the EU.[/quote]
I was a mental health nurse, the trust i worked for did ridiculous things with funding it did get, such as spend £1000,000 refurbishing a ward and close it down less than 12 months later, imo a lot of the NHS problems is due to the complete incompetence regarding financial matters, you could throw billions at it but untill it has a complete overhaul nothing will change, and it was just as shit under Labour.

Champagne socialist is someone interested in the social good, and so votes against their self-interest.

Exactly. The Tory govt has meant that my family has more money than we would have had in 2010. And we are far from rich, definitely not on MN £200k pa terms.

That’s not right when people around us are dying or living shit lives due to need.

To be honest, I don't think all the people who voted for Brexit got what they voted for. Yes, there may be some who wanted a 'return' to some mistaken and vainglorious past, but there will be others who wanted a change from the austerity that had squeezed services for years. The Brexit campaign, as I remember it, offered a 'solution', if someone was desperate enough to see it as such.

Yet, as other posters have said, what is the point of chewing the fat? We have a situation (or several situations) which need dealing with now. There is a subtle irony that the government may have to ask EU workers to work her again (if only temporarily). However, there is a greater tragedy that investment has not been made to train the young people of this country adequately. As someone said, the government have had five years to sort out the 'upskilling' of the country.