to think strict doesn’t automatically equals good when it comes to school?

[Merryoldgoat]

I have several friends who’s children have just started high school. These are some of the rules:

No talking in corridors
Single file in corridors
Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)
No brands of any kind
Bizarrely prescriptive rules about shoes
No artificially coloured hair

It feels like every single time a child tries to express themselves they get punished.

Is this what every school is like now? My DC are younger and I’ve not experienced this but I’m dreading it to be frank.

If you teach in a school like this how do you feel about it? It feels so draconian.

Our local school is like this, lots of friends are really into it. DD has done the 11+ (not sure of result yet) because the grammar school seems more relaxed about rules for the sake of it, but instead seems celebrate successes and a love of learning.

The thing is, private schools and the "good" comprehensives (which is code for "with a middle class intake") can do the whole freedom of expression, debating, creativity, treating them like adults thing. Because the kids at these schools tend to be brought up in good, supportive homes (mostly) with parents who value education and who teach their kids how to behave.
I went to a rough secondary for a while and this approach would not have worked there. The kids were feral and hardly any teaching actually took place, most of the lesson time was spent on crowd control.
What that school needed was strict discipline, but this was the early 00s when it was all about the soft approach and prizes for all. There were a handful of old school teachers who were super strict and their lessons were the only ones where some learning actually happened.
Sorry but the reality is that for some kids success means scraping by with some Cs, going on to be employed SOMEWHERE, even if it's a basic minimum wage job, and staying out of trouble with the law. Discipline and teaching them to obey rules helps them do that. Not everyone is going to go to university to be creative and a critical thinker.

Are these academies by any chance?

@EdgeOfTheSky Yes sorry, didn’t mean it to sound as if I was endorsing the zero tolerance approach for disadvantaged children; I very firmly am not. As you say, more privileged children in the independent sector are not having these draconian rules inflicted on them and remain free to question and challenge and debate.

Always find it disconcerting that these zero tolerance schools, with their endless rules and overpriced uniforms, think they’re aping the public school system, when the ethos of most modern public schools is exactly the opposite. Somewhere like St Paul’s Girls, with its no uniform policy and liberal ethos, is about as far from Michaela as you can get, and I would personally always choose the former over the latter for almost any child. The trouble is that Michaela undoubtedly looks good on paper, has a charismatic head who has found favour with the current government and has somehow come to be regarded as a beacon for all other state schools to aspire to.

That said, I sometimes feel like I’m shaky ground among my teacher friends and former colleagues if I assert that zero tolerance schools are bad for inclusion, or aren’t what challenging students need. Many of those working at secondary level are completely evangelical about them, value what they see as a purposeful, calm learning environment and believe they’re making a positive difference to pupils outcomes. Maybe it’s Stockholm syndrome, but they do genuinely seem to think they’re the way forward. Plus my own positive experience of a school with a liberal, egalitarian ethos was at a highly selective grammar with no behaviour issues, so I don’t feel I can wheel that out as a counter-argument when other children’s circumstances are so different.

As I said, I’m just glad I have the resources and wherewithal to swerve all this for DD. At the new zero tolerance primary near me they’ve even had to put a clause in their behaviour policy to clarify that the policy of children (whoops, sorry, ‘scholars’) walking everywhere with their hands clasped behind their back does not apply to stairs.

@AngelDelight28

The thing is, private schools and the "good" comprehensives (which is code for "with a middle class intake") can do the whole freedom of expression, debating, creativity, treating them like adults thing. Because the kids at these schools tend to be brought up in good, supportive homes (mostly) with parents who value education and who teach their kids how to behave. I went to a rough secondary for a while and this approach would not have worked there. The kids were feral and hardly any teaching actually took place, most of the lesson time was spent on crowd control. What that school needed was strict discipline, but this was the early 00s when it was all about the soft approach and prizes for all. There were a handful of old school teachers who were super strict and their lessons were the only ones where some learning actually happened. Sorry but the reality is that for some kids success means scraping by with some Cs, going on to be employed SOMEWHERE, even if it's a basic minimum wage job, and staying out of trouble with the law. Discipline and teaching them to obey rules helps them do that. Not everyone is going to go to university to be creative and a critical thinker.

My DC’s S London comp has a much higher than average FSM %, kids who are in gangs, kids in deeply chaotic households, a full representative S London intake (I.e plenty of middle class kids too).

The school also performs above average for all ability cohorts, offers fantastic opportunities in music and dance, does very well with SEN and inclusion, sends kids to Oxbridge.

There is a difference between maintaining discipline in class, including being strict where necessary, and treating kids as if they were in the army or borstal. My kids school managed a largely happy and civilise atmosphere without making young people constantly anxious about a detention or isolation for a uniform detail and the full rigmarole of the zero tolerance boot camp regimes.

All young people deserve to reach their potential, including developing the confidence to make good decisions and solve the challenges and problems that will face them in life.

That is what creative thinking is and it shouldn’t be the privileged preserve of middle class kids.

Interestingly this just popped up on my feed: www.tes.com/news/free-school-head-be-new-social-mobility-chief?fbclid=IwAR1dAnB-KEsjnLpByWQyHrWcZELu4AzKoohF8nyG5CNLjzFnHA7p81YQClM

Mixed thoughts on this. Ok with minimizing the disruption. Totally HATE uniforms.

Children ‘express’ themselves in many, many ways in school. In the books they choose to read and the stories they write, the art they produce,
the sports they take part in, through music and drama, in the myriad of ‘enrichment’ clubs they have now in Secondaries - Everything from sports to board games clubs to coding clubs to choir and on and on.
Modern schools offer so much more for individual pupils than they ever did at my amazing grammar school which was pretty boring in comparison.

The colour of their hair has nothing to do with any of that. Being told to be respectful by being on time, by walking in corridors, by not charging around when other classes might be going on or when hundreds of kids are all moving about at the same time isn’t stifling anyone’s personality. It’s just practical.
My kids go to a comp, the rules around behaviour are there for a reason, they’re needed when you have 1500 children of all abilities and backgrounds together.

We have a school like this near me, my neice is a pupil. All they are bothered about is academic achievement, it is more like an army camp than a school. My neice is in her fourth year there & her mental health is really suffering, she spends so much time checking & rechecking things because she is in fear of getting a detention, she once got one for accidentally dropping her pencil case as she was getting her things out of her bag at the beginning of a lesson. They don't want any pupils with SEN, I know several parents who have removed their SEN children because everything is about academic achievement, there are no vocational courses instead of GCSE's, nothing for the less able pupils. All they are doing is turning out cloned robots instead of well rounded young people who can think for themselves.

@Nat6999

Tbh your niece’s school sounds great! If DC are constantly checking that their shirt is tucked in or tie done up properly, they don’t have time to engage in more disruptive activities.

Imo a school having high academic expectations is great as it encourages all DC to try their best and work hard. I suspect my DC wouldn’t do anywhere near as well at school if it didn’t have high standards and a lot of competition between friends and classmates.

[quote GreenLakes]@Nat6999

Tbh your niece’s school sounds great! If DC are constantly checking that their shirt is tucked in or tie done up properly, they don’t have time to engage in more disruptive activities.

Imo a school having high academic expectations is great as it encourages all DC to try their best and work hard. I suspect my DC wouldn’t do anywhere near as well at school if it didn’t have high standards and a lot of competition between friends and classmates.[/quote]
How do you expect your dcs to do when or if they go to Uni? They won't have had a chance to practice self control. Will you provide them with strict rules to bed them in - how will they cope with being allowed to think rather than spending all their time checking their shirts. I feel so sorry for your kids - you have such a low opinion of their ability to control and think for themselves - I hope they aren't aware of your low expectations.

@GreenLakes - did you miss the comment from @Nat6999 about her niece’s mental health suffering under the school ridiculous rules.

Having strict rules doesn’t make your children work harder. Treating them as individuals who should learn to think for themselves would be a better life lesson.

Strict, fine. No one wants pissing about in class and throwing bags over stairwells.

Dictating when a blazer can be taken off and other equally ridiculous rules just attracts power hungry adults that have no place teaching children.

You can be strict without being a draconian, controlling, power hungry weirdo.

Tbh your niece’s school sounds great! If DC are constantly checking that their shirt is tucked in or tie done up properly, they don’t have time to engage in more disruptive activities.

You really think it's great that they drive children with SEN away, discipline them for genuine accidents, and adversely affect their pupils' mental health? With every respect, you need to raise your standards.

[quote GreenLakes]@Nat6999

Tbh your niece’s school sounds great! If DC are constantly checking that their shirt is tucked in or tie done up properly, they don’t have time to engage in more disruptive activities.

Imo a school having high academic expectations is great as it encourages all DC to try their best and work hard. I suspect my DC wouldn’t do anywhere near as well at school if it didn’t have high standards and a lot of competition between friends and classmates.[/quote]
Funny how I put in far more effort and got much higher grades at university, where I was happy, wearing comfortable clothes and not being ordered around like a prisoner.

The school sounds awful.

Rules on hair, makeup, and piercings are important. Discouraging vanity is key. Character matters far more than looks.

Strict rules on hair, makeup and piercings tell young people that their appearance is in fact the most important thing about them, as it's something the adults around them obsess over and punish them for.

I expect there's less vanity and appearance-related competition at non-uniform schools in other countries where most just wear jeans and sweatshirts and nobody really cares if someone has blue hair.

I worked in a secondary school 15 years ago where the children basically ran the school... loud boisterous corridors, late to class as messing around and idling. Uniform was accessorised with chains, fashion belts, hoodies, trainers. The children had little respect for the teachers and their outcomes were very poor. Lots from deprived backgrounds so little support from home. I left and I know with new management, the school has improved. Things like uniform snd behaviour in corridors absolutely does matter because if you take care of the little things, then the big things take care of themselves and hardly crop up - violence, leaving premises, truancy.
Those people going on about their cushy little jobs in a private school... wtf they are children from parents that actually give a shit. Many children who will bend the rules as far as they can go, are from chaotic, deprived backgrounds. Get in the real world, and support your school's rules or leave.

"Tbh your niece’s school sounds great!"

A school that doesn't want children with sen. Your comment says a lot about you.

I've just moved my DD13 from an academy that has all of these rules. She's a good kid who is happy to follow the rules but she developed anxiety and started having panic attacks due to the constant fear and the zero tolerance policy.

They carried out full searches on a regular basis. The staff would enter a classroom without warning , stop the lesson and search everyone's pockets and bags. My daughter had absolutely nothing to hide but it really bothered her , especially once she had started her periods and had all of her stuff for that in her bag.

The school gets good academic results because of the good classroom discipline but there is a massive problem with mental health issues in the school.

Also I found that the zero tolerance on uniform made the kids obsess about other ways to make themselves "cool". It became all about which brand of bag you had , how tight and short you could wear your trousers ( no skirts allowed) without getting told off.

Make up not allowed so the girls were getting eyelash lift and tints and fake tans instead. Hair trends had to be followed and if you didn't style it in the "current" way you would be teased. If someone saw you being dropped off in a car you would be teased if the car was too old or too flashy. My daughter was laughed at because her knickers weren't "sexy"

She's now at a private school that is much more relaxed and she's a different child now.

@Ericaequites

Rules on hair, makeup, and piercings are important. Discouraging vanity is key. Character matters far more than looks.

Interested on how you think rules on hair, makeup and piercings discourages vanity. Generally theses rules are old fashioned and very (small c) conservative - are you suggesting those who have a conservative sense of style that aligns the Headteacher, lack vanity and how have you come to this conclusion because I find that conclusion baffling but I'm curious to understand your thoughts and where you have gathered them from.

if you take care of the little things, then the big things take care of themselves Are you our HT? The big things at my dc's school was the piss poor maths dept - it did not take care of anything, the leafy suburb comp with invested parent who had the money employed tutors - the focus on uniform is an easy distraction, which they were keen to suggest they were upholding the highest of standards - the school weren't quite so receptive to the countless complaints about the standard of maths teaching until it went viral - a kid had recorded the piss poor lesson and stuck it on social media. The big stuff couldn't be hidden then.

Strict rules on hair, makeup and piercings tell young people that their appearance is in fact the most important thing about them, as it's something the adults around them obsess over and punish them for.

Completely agree with this. Its mind blowing how short sighted people are on this issue.

From comments it would appear that schools obsessed with uniform and behaviour rules are using it as a distraction of poor teachers and teaching.

I could tell you about a primary school that penalises Year one children for needing to go to the loo outside breaktime. Sure it has reduced the number of interruptions but at what cost? Kids feeling distressed and wetting themselves (one had a messier experience) as they don't want to lose 5 mins break - essential time to bond and relax with their classmates - I don't believe that's a healthy or appropriate for a 5 year old - it certainly seems to suit the teachers - although I'm sure they are not entirely thrilled by the clean up job - but how much shame does the child feel - how long does that unhealthy emotion stay with them.