to think strict doesn’t automatically equals good when it comes to school?

[Merryoldgoat]

I have several friends who’s children have just started high school. These are some of the rules:

No talking in corridors
Single file in corridors
Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)
No brands of any kind
Bizarrely prescriptive rules about shoes
No artificially coloured hair

It feels like every single time a child tries to express themselves they get punished.

Is this what every school is like now? My DC are younger and I’ve not experienced this but I’m dreading it to be frank.

If you teach in a school like this how do you feel about it? It feels so draconian.

It sounds like the school I went to near altrincham. Left in 88. The shoe list was awful must keep the local Clarks in business. And there was one prescribed skirt. And you could only get the uniform from Taylor and Cross which cost loads.

I would never send my child to a school like this even if they get great results. It's against my entire philosophy of life. I think of it like some of the atheists on here do about Catholic schools. I would rather home educate if this was the only option.

@ChildOfFriday

The systems at the DC’s schools are that the teacher will make an announcement during lessons if blazers (and jumpers in winter term) can be removed. Otherwise, the expectation is that DC are in full uniform.

Tbh it’s not an issue at all. Teachers generally give permission for removal when it’s extremely warm. Otherwise it’s something the DC just get used to.

I think it’s just part of the general ethos of high standards and discipline.

GreenLakes is obsessed with a ridiculous compliance with school uniform. Every time I read one of these threads I’m thankful DC’s was a non uniform school.
There was no bullying, time wasted on whether someone was or wasn’t wearing the right clothes and shoes, excellent academic success and opportunity to think for themselves as to whether it was too hot or cold for shorts or jeans.

Same with DD's school Parker231

It also makes no sense when it's to get them used to work.
What about University?
They don't have uniforms.

@GreenLakes you end with silly situations. Teacher A on the same corridor is allowing blazers off because they feel warm, teacher B feels the cold and says keep them on. Child A is feeling overheated and can’t focus on their work, a good kid who would otherwise be giving it their full focus.

Child A then gets a detention for taking a blazer off in the corridor to try to cool off. Is that really punishment worthy, or worth missing learning over? I just do t get the attitude at all. Near me we had a September heatwave, 28c and hotter inside in crowded rooms. Some schools enforced blazers as it was an autumn term rule. Who gained? Some kids were sent home even over blazers. It was more disruptive than anything any child ever managed to do.

It's a domineering leadership style - and it's fascinating - are the teachers subjected to the same domineering style of leadership, and if so are the teachers some how different to the rest of the workforce in that they thrive under this kind of leadership - if that's the case it's like a little bubble of unusual behaviour that only suits educators and what affect does that have on pupils who will be more usual and do not thrive when being dominated.

@TheViewFromTheCheapSeats

There would be no inconsistency like that at the DCs’ schools as they’re not allowed blazers off in corridors or the canteen etc unless the head announces in very warm summer weather (very rarely happens).

The only time they can be removed is if a particular classroom is exceptionally warm and the teacher makes an announcement- this tends to only happen once or twice a year.

DS1, DS2 and DD were in blazers right through September except for a few lessons with no issue. DD was allowed to leave her jumper off. Not a problem at all.

It is bizarre when evidence from many other countries without uniforms (and better academic achievement at secondary school level) is that uniforms have no effect on academic attainment

@NotMyJobToFixProblemsIMade - exactly. My DC’s - U.K. school and their cousins in the US, Canada, France and Belgium- all non uniform schools but high achievers who have attended top Uni’s.

I agree and disagree. I teach in a school with the same rules apart from the corridor one. I’m intrigued by you saying are all schools like this now? I went to school 20 years ago and it was the same then too? Apart from the corridor thing. I don’t think hair is an issue but shoes should follow the policy otherwise you’d get some kids rocking up in expensive trainers and others that couldn’t afford it it’s just an opportunity for bullying which is why there’s a uniform policy in the first place. The late thing - there has to be a cut off otherwise if a student was 2 minutes late and the cut off was 1 minute they would say they were only a minute late and so on. If one child walks in at 3 minutes past and the other at 4 minutes past how do you decide what counts as late and what is fair (fairness is VERY important to students I have learnt!). It’s easier to just to have one cut off time which is the time the lesson starts. Also as a teacher you wouldn’t believe how disruptive it is having students come in late. Often I’ll have done the register etc and have started a video or a PowerPoint or whatever and then I have to come off everything to edit the register, and alert the SLT if a student who has been in school that day isn’t in my lesson. That can happen multiple times throughout the first 5-10 mins of the lesson. These are also usually the same students who don’t have a pen or their book so I then have to sort that out. Add onto that children being brought in and out of lessons for various reasons and you really start to feel for the 98% of students who are sat there looking at you waiting to be taught!

Having no school uniform doesn’t mean there is bullying as to what you wear.

DC’s wore shorts and T-shirt in the warmer weather and jeans and a hoodie in the winter. Rarely any branded clothes. No time wasted on ridiculous monitoring of what students are wearing, no bullying and much more comfortable for school days. A student is capable of deciding themselves as to whether they are cold and need to put on another layer. Everyone is different as to whether they feel hot or cold. No wonder children are leaving school unable to think for themselves.

We went to a open evening last night at a technical school. They concentrate on arts, sports. digital media and obviously English, Maths and Science. The school only caters for Y10 to Y 13 and is a small school.
Obviously it was an open evening but it was so free. No uniform, teachers use their fiirst names, there is an emphasis on free expression and being an individual. No isolation for bad behaviour instead they talk to one of the teachers. Detentions for lateness only after 5 late arrivals and they will attempt to find out why they are late rather than just sticking them straight in isolation /detection.
My daughter loved it although she hasn't 100% decided if she wants to go there yet.
The school she is currently at would have kittens if they saw how different the other school was. They give 3 lessons of isolation if they are 2 minutes late, they give isolation for incorrect uniform and shoes. Obviously they give isolation for bad behavior too but these rules (especially the uniform one) makes me feel like saying "stop moaning about their shoes and just teach them something."
Interestingly the technical school students get better results in GCSE and A level than most of the local academies.

@Rosebel I did some of my teacher training at a school like that and it was fab. Works really well for some schools. I don’t think it would work in a school like where I teach with 1300 pupils from y7-13. In my experience year 7-8 (and sometimes the beginning of year 9) are by far the hardest behaviour management wise, by year 9 up generally students are more chilled out usually and know the expectations by then.

In my sons high school they aren’t allowed to raise their hands in class they have to show a red or amber piece of card on their desk.

@Parker231

Having no school uniform doesn’t mean there is bullying as to what you wear.

DC’s wore shorts and T-shirt in the warmer weather and jeans and a hoodie in the winter. Rarely any branded clothes. No time wasted on ridiculous monitoring of what students are wearing, no bullying and much more comfortable for school days. A student is capable of deciding themselves as to whether they are cold and need to put on another layer. Everyone is different as to whether they feel hot or cold. No wonder children are leaving school unable to think for themselves.

I agree with this, it matches my Dc experience of a uniform free school.

They all wore ordinary clothes all the time, so no novelty excitement about it, choosing an outfit etc.

It was a school with very little bullying, and bullying well dealt with. What bullying / teasing there was never seemed to be about clothes. If bullying is going to happen, they will find something. Clothes are a handy target, not a cause.

Everyone just got in with wearing what was comfortable, practical, affordable and their preferred style. No drama. This was an inner-city S London state school.

Classrooms need to be well disciplined environments which would be undermined by loosening uniform standards.

This is just total bullshit though. The rest of Europe copes perfectly well with educating their children without desperately relying on blazers and ties for 'discipline'.

My daughter's secondary is very strict on behaviour (although they are allowed to speak in corridors) and hair styles/neatness/no make up etc. I was dreading it, but to be honest it has resulted in impeccably behaved kids and my daughter is very happy

School is a preparation for life and there are many 'rules' that we have that enable everyone to live their lives harmoniously /safely. Accepting that and adhering to rules when young is bedrock for adulthood. Non-acceptance/adherence.....well we read about that daily.

School is a preparation for life and there are many 'rules' that we have that enable everyone to live their lives harmoniously /safely.

These rules only work if they are proportional and the purpose of them is clear.

Draconian uniform and discipline rules don't fall into that category.

People of all ages respond well to being treated reasonably, as human beings.

@Rosebel

We went to a open evening last night at a technical school. They concentrate on arts, sports. digital media and obviously English, Maths and Science. The school only caters for Y10 to Y 13 and is a small school. Obviously it was an open evening but it was so free. No uniform, teachers use their fiirst names, there is an emphasis on free expression and being an individual. No isolation for bad behaviour instead they talk to one of the teachers. Detentions for lateness only after 5 late arrivals and they will attempt to find out why they are late rather than just sticking them straight in isolation /detection. My daughter loved it although she hasn't 100% decided if she wants to go there yet. The school she is currently at would have kittens if they saw how different the other school was. They give 3 lessons of isolation if they are 2 minutes late, they give isolation for incorrect uniform and shoes. Obviously they give isolation for bad behavior too but these rules (especially the uniform one) makes me feel like saying "stop moaning about their shoes and just teach them something." Interestingly the technical school students get better results in GCSE and A level than most of the local academies.

@Rosebel my ds1 started at a secondary school that sounds very similar, although did have a uniform (but relatively relaxed compared to other schools). It was brilliant, he loved it and so did we. Sadly lots of prospective parents didn't agree with the ethos and numbers were low (great for small class sizes, rubbish for school finances). Eventually the headteacher was 'managed out' by the local authority & diocese (it was a Catholic school but very liberal and welcoming to all). Immediately the school was swept into a big Catholic academy chain, new exec head implemented a raft of changes including strict uniform code, no talking in classes, 'internal exclusion' for minor breaches of rules etc etc. Totally different ethos, and really hard for students and existing staff to adjust to. My ds was in late year 9 at the time, and he and his friends decided to get their heads down, get through to end year 11 and then leave as fast as they could! Not one of his cohort stayed on to sixth form, and their last 2 years at the school certainly weren't positive - and these were 'good' kids, certainly not in trouble etc. But whole atmosphere had changed - in my ds's words, they used to feel like they trusted and respected the teachers and the teachers trusted and respected them. As soon as the draconian rules came in, it felt as if that respect and trust disappeared (on both sides). It takes a very brave and well supported leadership team to go against the 'grain' nowadays - at my younger dcs' school the first 2 things a recent new headteacher did was to crack down on what footwear they were allowed to wear and revise the behaviour policy (to make it stricter). In comparison to ds1's old school, this one was pretty strict already.

@pinkpip100 - it most definitely takes courage to go against the grain. My SIL works in an academy where this is exactly what they are doing. For the first time - they are hiring teachers based on their ability to connect and build a positive relationship with kids, it’s a bit radical - they have relaxed school uniform rules and are moving towards phasing them out. In the past there have been lots of behavioural issues and the approach is to try to build trust and respect between the staff and kids…lots of these kids have been through a lot - they need support, empathy and to learn to trust adults.

@PostItNow that is so refreshing to hear - let's hope more schools/academies move in this direction.

[quote pinkpip100]@PostItNow that is so refreshing to hear - let's hope more schools/academies move in this direction. [/quote]
I live to hear about what they are trying to achieve - they show so much care and empathy for these kids. They are big fans of the Dare to Lead series of books on courageous leadership, and it’s been a long hard battle I’m sure some kids come to no harm at all in these restrictive environments- hard to know though, as we have no way of knowing how they would have been had they have been treated with more care and respect. Thing is we have such very little choice - all our local schools follow the excessively strict model - it’s lazy and cowardly leadership - so it’s not surprising they take they easy route.

I think the schools are maybe trying to keep on top of behaviour which is horrendous in most schools, it’s like a big unspoken secret in this country. If it was my little boy I would tell him to suck it up, you’re in school to learn.