to think strict doesn’t automatically equals good when it comes to school?

[Merryoldgoat]

I have several friends who’s children have just started high school. These are some of the rules:

No talking in corridors
Single file in corridors
Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)
No brands of any kind
Bizarrely prescriptive rules about shoes
No artificially coloured hair

It feels like every single time a child tries to express themselves they get punished.

Is this what every school is like now? My DC are younger and I’ve not experienced this but I’m dreading it to be frank.

If you teach in a school like this how do you feel about it? It feels so draconian.

But because we were strict on the little things, you didn’t bother to mess with the big rules, like not leaving school premises during the school day.

See, I don't buy this at all. I don't think it follows logically, and with 25 years' teaching experience I don't think it's what happens.

It scares me some of what I hear from other parents about high school nowadays.

For example:
Girls must wear tights all year round
A blazer cannot be taken off when you are hot, you can't even ask - it can only be taken off if the teacher makes an announcement at the beginning of class
Every weekend is spent doing homework - not able to accept social invitations
Child put into detention as they don't have a specific ruler that they have to buy at school - it is out of stock at school
Child put into detention as they can't access homework online despite parent confirming this
If child misses detention whole day spent in isolation

I went to a very good, high achieving school. We didn't even have detentions and rules so much more relaxed than nowadays.

Having had my time in education severely cramped by other students "expressing their individuality" fucking about and constantly disrupting things I favour a stricter approach.

Some of the rules make no sense and are just about control for the sake of control. That’s not how most workplaces work, except that ones you’d not want to work in.

Things like not talking in corridors because of other lessons is bollox - people are usually changing lessons at the same time 😂

Stuff about uniform is supposed to protect those on lower income but again that’s bollox as you need to sell your kidney to buy the branded uniform.

I can only conclude that because most head teachers have only ever worked in schools, their sense of perspective is skewed.

@Thighdentitycrisis

Society has rules and schools are also learning ground for social skills. They are to me a bit like mini societies where we practice how to behave amongst others and make adjustments to our behaviour that impacts on others. like being able to queue and to understand what single file is. It’s important or else imagine the stampede on the escalators on the tube for example.

It's interesting that many other countries don't have a queue culture. Now, I'm a Brit and like a queue as much as the next person, but other countries do manage! I'm not sure these kind of strict rules can be justified by saying it is essential DC learn to queue. Besides, they learn it well enough actually being out in society!

@lazylinguist

But because we were strict on the little things, you didn’t bother to mess with the big rules, like not leaving school premises during the school day.

See, I don't buy this at all. I don't think it follows logically, and with 25 years' teaching experience I don't think it's what happens.

Responding to your response to my post!!

Fair enough. It did happen at my school though. People just didn’t truant. I only remember one fight and the hushed voices that were used to talk about it for weeks afterwards.
I think people felt it was strict but fair. You knew what to expect. So you didn’t mess with the big stuff because the little stuff brought consequences so you wouldn’t even bother with the big things.

Fair enough. It did happen at my school though. People just didn’t truant. I only remember one fight and the hushed voices that were used to talk about it for weeks afterwards.

I'm of course not disputing the behaviour of kids at your school. I'm disputing the reason for that. There weren't any fights or truanting at my school either. Because it was a very civilised girls' grammar school in a very leafy, wealthy town. A school doesn't get well-behaved kids by being persistently petty.

There are lots of schools who aren't strict over the little petty stuff which have good behaviour and lack of truanting. There are lots of schools who are very pernickety over the small stuff and still have awful behaviour, attendance problems etc. And vice versa.

It's a very common tactic for turning a school around if things have got really bad and behaviour is a massive issue. It's not what I would choose ideally, but better than chairs being thrown around classrooms and only the most outrageous pupils getting any attention while anyone who wants to learn is ignored.

I went to a rubbish and rough comp in the 80s. In a semi-rural area so not inner city. Its been in some kind of measures since the 90s. It is still seemingly crap. Our uniform was lax and poor kids of which there were a lot were picked on by teachers for having clothes that were poor or dirty. Richer kids got away with whatever. The rules on uniform were fairly relaxed. We had to wear the tie but anyway we liked. Any shirt. Any jumper of the colour. Any skirt of the colour, any length. Shoes that weren't muddy but no type specified. Kids constantly disrupted lessons. Behaviour was terrible. My studies extremely disrupted to the point of it ruining my education and there was frequent bullying. Drugs and alcohol at school discos. It was like we were kind of left to get on with it. Teachers were not great. I have no fond memories. Not one. Some teachers were bullies and would be sacked under child protection measures. A School genuinely couldn't be much worse to be honest. People don't actually believe me when I tell them (if a bit middle class especially). This was 30 years ago.
School is a lot different for my DC... but... it has gone too far in many ways. I think they're safe (I wasnt). Yes some teachers are bullies and on power trips but the worst is gone. I find the rules trigger me into a rage though. It must be contributing to poor mental health of our young. Blazers in hot weather. Not using the toilet when you need. It's producing worker bees not critical thinkers. They aren't snowflakes. Surely we can treat children like people and with respect.
There was a OP earlier this week about discos and lack of. Where is the fun now? No school discos. Nothing. Just all day rules rules rules and night time just social media and gaming. Thankfully I have the means to provide lots of activities for my dc. But not everyone can. It's just so depressing. I want to scoop them up and run away with them.

There's a school like this near me (an academy). I hated it when I visited and I knew my DC would not cope in that type of environment.
Another local school brought in really strict footwear rules without communicating with parents, resulting in loads of kids being sent home for wearing shoes they'd previously worn without issue. That kind of pettiness I don't get at all.
Schools need to work on mutual kindness and respect. Not officer / prisoner.

No talking in corridors? Fuck that. I don't think I'd send my daughters to that kind of school

The DCs’ schools are very strict and personally I think it’s great. It creates a culture of high standards, discipline and effort.

Many of the rules complained about on this thread are in place with no issue at all. Blazers worn at all times and only removed if invited by teacher- not a problem as teachers can and do give permission for removal when it’s exceptionally warm.

Lots of homework- I suspect this is a large part of the reason for the schools’ excellent results. DS1 is in year 11 and he is expected to be averaging 3 hours of homework/revision a night with more at weekends. He gets on with it with no problem as he is used to working hard and aiming high.

The strict rules at my kid’s school were a distraction from the crap teaching - but that was too hard to deal with, easier to blame kids and parents.

My 2 DC are at different senior schools and neither of them are as strict in reality as the rules indicate. We dyed DC2s hair at the start of the school holidays and it's faded but still visible even now - the only teacher comments so far have been positive 🙂. Both DC are expected to dress smartly (blazers, ties etc) and arrive on time for registration and for each lesson, but the teachers at both schools operate on a 'warning' system rather than moving straight to detention. The published rules nearly always sound worse than the reality in my experience, I really wouldn't worry 🙂.

I suppose you would have to ask yourself why the various rules were implemented in the first place.

Most teachers do not go into teaching to make kids miserable or funnel them through a joyless, miserable day.

However, rules are an accepted and useful way to pre-empt or resolve an unwanted issue that ultimately makes school life easier for the majority even if some outliers will rebel against them; i'm sure kids and parents have complained about rules for as long as schools have existed.

The rules about moving between lessons quietly, and staying to the left of the corridor, are about minimising conflict that can flare up in less structured times and getting them to the next lesson on time.

The rules about hair and uniform are always unpopular with some parents whilst others welcome a smart cohort. Relaxing rules on uniform is difficult. On non-uniform days we have children coming in in inappropriate clothing and spend too much time dealing with nonsense disagreements, altercations and perceived slights. Afterwards, we spend time fielding calls from parents about lost or damaged items that were very expensive, or X was upset because someone laughed at her outfit.

Hair - I don't personally have an issue with colour but have worked in schools where kids have come in with offensive words buzzed or dyed into their style, and schools where a particular style or colour denoted your gang.

When the time comes for your children to go to secondary school, I think you will find that there is plenty of fun being had in those schools, and plenty of ways for kids to be original and creative.

"Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)"

A blanket rule takes all of the emotion out of it and saves time.

I don't have kids drifting in late and saying 'what have I missed?' as they disrupt the class whilst getting organised.

I don't have to spend time catching kids up because they missed the first bit of the intro.

I don't have to listen to their lengthy explanations because it doesn't matter what they are.

I don't have to spend time checking whether their obvious lie about why they are late is true or not.

I don't have to explain why X didn't get a detention (nice lad, rarely late, good reason) but Y did (disruptive, always late, rubbish excuse).

I don't have to respond to parents contacting me after school because their kid got a detention but his leg fell off on the way to class - blanket rule, everyone aware.

If there's a genuine emergency, they turn up late with a member of staff or a note and don't get a detention of course.

""Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)"

Also means that we don't have kids hanging back or hiding in toilets to set off a smoke alarm, thump their enemy, terrorise younger kids etc. Once the next lesson has started, nobody should be on corridors and supervising staff can relax. It also means that learning time is maximised for the kids sat at their desks in a timely way waiting for the lesson to start.

Some of it I agree with - no brands to knock competitive fashion-ware on the head and single filets minimise walking into each other

Personally I believe school uniform should be trainers, jogging bottoms, t shirt, sweatshirt, cap. Ready for movement and comfortable.

I think there should be a rule that any parent sending their child to a school like this has to operate by exactly the same rules in their workplace

Easiest way to try to fix this broken education system is to just keep getting stricter and more punitive - doesn’t cost much or require a lot of thought or creativity, And as long as they are seen to try that’s all that matters.

All the rules sound fine to me. Ds's secondary is strict, apparently they all are round her, say all other parents I know, and I like this.

Most teachers do not go into teaching to make kids miserable or funnel them through a joyless, miserable day. Yet I think this has what school has become for many kids - a bloody miserable place.

One of the academy groups near me insists children use a 'desk map' and are not allowed to have anything in their hands while the teacher is addressing the class, not even a pencil.

Now a desk map can be really useful for a child who is forever putting things down and forgetting them but not for all kids and I'd bet they are designed for right handed pupils.

I have to have something in my hands to listen properly and some children are the same, this is why some children have fidget toys.

Things that I have seen work well is the C1, C2, C3 system, with a staff rota for detentions.

C1 first infraction- child's name goes on the board, C2 if there is a second then the name get s tick and C3 is a detention, at the end of the lesson C1 and C2 disappear and the child starts with no consequences in the next lesson.

One school I worked in had compulsory breakfast, the downside was that you started your class and then you had to take them to breakfast, but the upside was that breakfast was free.

@Stompythedinosaur

I hate this sort of stuff in schools.

Kids should be treated like human beings. Overly harsh and restrictive environments are damaging.

OK, but if you're 1 minute late for a train, it's already gone. Youre a minute late checking in at the airport, your holiday is cancelled.

Many, many employers have standards of professional dress and appearance, why shouldn't we be encouraging our kids to have pride in their appearance?

Kids are in school for 7ish hours s day in term time only, 38-39 weeks a year. Plenty of time to express individuality and be as late as they like in their own time.

YANBU. I've never seen the point of uniform but if a school is going to have one it should be sensible and comfortable, and not include rules about hair. You can take off your school jumper at the end of the day; you can't change your hair so easily.

I went to a 'strict' school, although it wasn't nearly as awful as the one on the OP. I have ASD and was from what I guess would be called a chaotic home. The petty rules didn't give me structure and comfort or any of that nonsense. Rules with logical reasoning behind them that weren't enforced in a draconian manner might have done that. Rules that felt like adults on a power trip made me feel extremely anxious, resentful and afraid. I didn't go to school very much.

If my school had had a rule that being one minute late meant detention regardless of the circumstances, I'd have stayed away altogether if it looked like I'd be late!