to think strict doesn’t automatically equals good when it comes to school?

[Merryoldgoat]

I have several friends who’s children have just started high school. These are some of the rules:

No talking in corridors
Single file in corridors
Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)
No brands of any kind
Bizarrely prescriptive rules about shoes
No artificially coloured hair

It feels like every single time a child tries to express themselves they get punished.

Is this what every school is like now? My DC are younger and I’ve not experienced this but I’m dreading it to be frank.

If you teach in a school like this how do you feel about it? It feels so draconian.

They're standard rules for the whole school.
My DC school has similar rules but the overall learning is fun based it is brilliant.

The detention for late arrival seems harsh.

Our principal has a motto "There are no late DC in primary school only late parents" 🤣

@GreatPotato

It provides structure, routine and firm boundaries that does suit the majority of children. It also makes "managing" large classes and year groups easier.

For some children though, it makes school practically impossible.

This.

I've worked in a variety of schools over the last decade, and I can't see that clothing rules make any difference to behaviour at all.
I think that rules should be restricted to the necessary- so timing and attendance are important, handing in work on time and not disrupting classes are also important. The colour of your hair or shoes, not so much.

I think some go as far to verge on being child abuse. To keep children in a fearful heightened state of anxiety all day is abusive, it’s not ok for some to not be fearful to excuse it. To not allow basic needs to be met, for example by having 10 minute breaks, no toilets in lessons and 1400 pupils to about 20 toilets for 5/10minutes with punishment for lateness can leave teenagers unable to access toilets for a whole day.

There are schools near me that punish for looking at the clock and don’t allow talk except for with the teacher to answer questions. That means no debate or asking questions, if you check out blooms taxonomy of learning that’s pretty low down the skills they need.

Adults don’t work in places where they can only wear uniform that isn’t offered for all body types, for example in Tesco any smartish trousers and shoes can be worn with their shirt. On building sites as long as the boots are steel toe capped it’s ok and so on.

Can you imagine trying to work if you were on a heavy period in a skirt and unable to deal with it? Punished if you forgot yourself and looked around? Punished if you needed to stretch or deal with pins and needles and moved too much? Were sitting in 28/30 degrees in a jacket with no drink? Managing a 28c day but avoiding too much water as you had no toilet access most the day?

All you’d be thinking about would be the rules and trying to feel ok and your anxiety. Your brain would have near zero space for learning or task completion to any standard. Kids aren’t any different to us.

I’ve taught teens in rough schools. Strict schools often managed by essentially dumping SEN children off roll completely, or denying them education until they left (eg isolation every single day for very minor things like movement breaks being denied at the child randomly standing, not full on disruption). As a rule I also found the relaxed schools easier. I will admit though some teachers weren’t kind, for example keeping blazers on in every hot lesson in summer (and in a school it’s often a particularly hot room).

As a last point, most parents don’t have a choice of schools. Even if they apply to ones of choice they get their local school, at best there’s maybe a choice of two very similar schools.

There are really useful things which could be compulsory. A compulsory mile walk start of the day. Compulsory casual wear and homework timetabled into the school day.

I haven’t had time to read all the replies but yes just had to say that I completely understand your concerns Op and I share them. My son is a gentle, kind hearted boy, small for his age and wouldn’t harm a fly. I don’t mean to frighten you obviously but I’ve had a world of issues. His school issue detentions for kids turning their head to face the person answering a question, for being 1 minute late, for picking a pen up that they’ve dropped on the floor, the list goes on. He spent the first two years utterly terrified of the teachers and warnings and just couldn’t take in what was being taught in class. The school are pushing it on him, saying he suffers from anxiety. He’s not an anxious boy normally and never had an issue all through primary.
I understand some rules are necessary (single file in corridor is very sensible because it’s complete chaos!), but some of the things happening at his academy are beyond petty. His friend got a warning for being too eager to start her assignment- she picked up her pen to write 30 seconds before teacher said it was ok to do so. Now that kind of thing I do take issue with. It’s damaging for their self esteem.

Speak to the school before your son starts. There’s help for children who have a diagnosis. At my son’s school they have separate stair cases and all, because some kids cannot cope with the busy corridors and the mad rush.
My son doesn’t have a diagnosis nor does he require one, so he falls through the net and is just told to bloody get on with it.

I miss primary days so so much. It’s a huge difference.

Many, many employers have standards of professional dress and appearance, why shouldn't we be encouraging our kids to have pride in their appearance? We want our staff to use their judgement - no hope of that being encouraged at school. I suppose clones might be good for some employers

"We want our staff to use their judgement - no hope of that being encouraged at school. I suppose clones might be good for some employers."

Unfortunately quite a lot of teens have not yet developed good judgment. The sights we see on non-uniform day reassure me that a uniform code is an excellent way to maintain standards.

Luckily, wearing a uniform has not been shown to cause lasting anguish and only lasts until they are 18 when they can spend the next 70 years of their life wearing whatever they want, as they can during the 17 hours per day that they are not in school actually (or indeed the 170 days pa that they are not in school at all).

Most survive the hellish dystopia that is wearing the same outfit as everyone else and would probably do so even better without their parents reaffirming their teenage angst.

Most survive the hellish dystopia that is wearing the same outfit as everyone else and would probably do so even better without their parents reaffirming their teenage angst. How do you know? Opinion or study - have they done a proper study with non uniform kids as the control?

Unfortunately quite a lot of teens have not yet developed good judgment. The sights we see on non-uniform day reassure me that a uniform code is an excellent way to maintain standards. You make a judgement based on one day of freedom - jeez!

"How do you know? Opinion or study - have they done a proper study with non uniform kids as the control?"

Well I've never met an adult who was traumatised by it tbh.

But if you've got a peer reviewed study saying otherwise I'll change my mind.

"You make a judgement based on one day of freedom - jeez!"

Don't be silly. Several days, across many years. Also do lots of trips snd residentials. Also live in the town I work in so see quite a lot of my pupils. I see you're determined that uniform is tantamount to child cruelty but I just don't agree. I think there's plenty of stuff to worry about when it comes to our kids but this isn't one of them.

DSs school had daily uniform and equipment checks, the students had to line up once a day to check all was correct - if not they were given strikes, 5 strikes meant a detention. Thankfully it stopped due to covid.
It caused so much stress for the students, mostly people in those who were abiding by the rules but were worried they would accidentally step out of line. The school had quite a lot children unable to attend due to anxiety which I really feel was exacerbated but the strict rules.

DS moved to a different school which is far more relaxed and he’s now able to attend full time and actually learn rather than stressing over insignificant matters.

@fourminutestosavetheworld

"We want our staff to use their judgement - no hope of that being encouraged at school. I suppose clones might be good for some employers."

Unfortunately quite a lot of teens have not yet developed good judgment. The sights we see on non-uniform day reassure me that a uniform code is an excellent way to maintain standards.

Luckily, wearing a uniform has not been shown to cause lasting anguish and only lasts until they are 18 when they can spend the next 70 years of their life wearing whatever they want, as they can during the 17 hours per day that they are not in school actually (or indeed the 170 days pa that they are not in school at all).

Most survive the hellish dystopia that is wearing the same outfit as everyone else and would probably do so even better without their parents reaffirming their teenage angst.

The thing with "non-uniform" days is it provokes extremes because the students have one tine limited chance to show something to others about who they are, or how they want to be seen. So yes, soem student go all out to impress/shock whatever. My (lengthy) experience working in non- uniform school contexts is that if there is no uniform a) there is so much less time wasted by teachers on "wrong kind of tie knot/ wrong style of trouser/ logo on trainers etc etc ad nauseam b) after possible a few days at the start of year 7 everyone stope "trying too hard" and settles into jeans/ hoodies / tracksuit bottoms/ jumpers and starts to dress for comfort and convenience (guess what - just like adults!) There are different styles, "tribes" but that is the rich tapestry ... c) if there is work experience / interview day for 6th form etc they dress appropriately d) happy relaxed people learn better.

And on the "rules" discussion, yes rules are needed but teenagers are not daft and will have no respect for pointless arbitrary rules. I vividly remember a difficult and traumatised young person angrily yelling at me "You can't control me!". And I agreed with them and said it was my wish they learn and progress towards controlling themselves. Our mistake as adults and teachers is sometimes to forget the good sense and instincts of young people and to seek quick fixes by imposing riules for our own convenience. I am reminded of the saying "Do you want a child who does what they're told, no matter what is right, or one who does what is right, no matter what they are told?"

Non uniform days are more or less, 'dress up days', they are few and far between.

Non uniform schools don't have this issue.
The kids generally wear jeans/leggings/shorts, and t-shirts and hoodies.

@Whatelsecouldibecalled 🤣. Outwood was a disaster for DS1. It's complete inflexibility actually encouraged lateness for him and led to him doing it more. They gave him after school detention for being late. He has ASD and hated the other kids so getting to miss them at home time as well as first thing was the ideal result for him. Isolation was perfect for him too for the same reason. I tried to discuss this and how to better support him with attendance but it was just a blank "computer says no" type response. I couldn't move him or home educate unfortunately and he left with no GCSEs.

Don't be silly. Several days, across many years. Just what I thought - your limited opinion based on your experience - which you stupidly like to present as fact. No need to defend yourself either...you're the professional that knows everything, right? Met you before and I'm sure you've met me! We put up with your crap while we had to, thankfully no longer.

@PostItNow

Don't be silly. Several days, across many years. Just what I thought - your limited opinion based on your experience - which you stupidly like to present as fact. No need to defend yourself either...you're the professional that knows everything, right? Met you before and I'm sure you've met me! We put up with your crap while we had to, thankfully no longer.

What's to defend? We are just two strangers with opposing opinions on a single trivial point. It is of no consequence to me whether you or anyone else agrees. I come onto threads like this sometimes to try to give a school's point of view, to try to explain where the hated rules may be rooted, that's all.

I do actually always try to see the other side of the argument myself though. I have four kids at secondary school so there are certainly points we'd agree on I'm sure.

Although of course I am talking from experience and opinion, as we all are on here I think,l. I find it a bit odd that you are contesting my 'fact' that 'most people survive wearing school uniform.' That's a fact we can both agree on surely? Or maybe not?

Oh well. It is great that we live somewhere with thousands of schools to choose from. You can always swap to a school whose rules you find effective and bearable. Or, if enough parents agree with you, you might get them to change the rules, who knows. I have tried to explain the thinking but that's all I can do really isn't it. Good luck.

@fourminutestosavetheworld we live in different universes - so glad to be rid of the stupid crap peddled by schools. How I wish my kids had inspiring teachers who cared more about education and creativity than rules and exams - but that’s what it comes down to…must be depressing to think that’s all you do!

"must be depressing to think that’s all you do!"

Are we still talking about school uniform? You seem very worked up about such a little issue. I know your comment was designed to hurt me but I love my job as much now as I did when I started. I don't recognise your bleak description of schools at all, although I know they are all different. There is no job more rewarding in my opinion, and full of joy every day. I love it, I really do.

Uniform / no brands and natural hair colours being ruled I have no issues with - lots of work places have similar rules/expectations and it stops the have/have nits (It also p*sses me off when parents kick off about it.)
However talking in corridors, as long as not raucous, is a great social time esp after certain lessons, lets of steam before next lesson. Most classes change at the same time do shouldn't disturb others.
Blazers off/ top buttons open should be allowed as being hot /uncomfortable is not a good environment to learn in. Back to Smart before you leave the class.

@safclass

I agree with most of your post except that schools should allow undone top buttons and blazers off in lessons.

Classrooms need to be well disciplined environments which would be undermined by loosening uniform standards.

The DC can only take their blazers off if the teacher invites them to do so. This works well as DC are in full uniform except when the weather is exceptionally warm.

@GreenLakes By "if the teacher invites them to do so" do you mean that pupils should have to ask to take their blazer off, or that they shouldn't be allowed to ask and have to wait for the teacher to mention it? I don't really have a problem with the former (my school was like this, and though we had to ask to take our blazers off in lessons I never heard a refusal, and some teachers would just say that we didn't have to ask in their lessons at the start of the year), but I really disagree with the latter. People feel hot/cold at different temperatures, and the teacher may forget to mention about blazers, or not be hot themselves when some pupils are. I can't imagine baking in my blazer and not even being allowed to ask to take it off, and I'm not sure how you're meant to concentrate on your work when you're so hot.

I can’t stand these zero tolerance boot camps that treat young people as if they were in a young offenders institution and assume they are badly behaved before they have even drawn breath.

Discipline, respect and good behaviour can thrive in schools where the staff and management seem to actually like young people.

My Dc went to an effective comp in S London with a representative S London cohort. The whole ethos was of celebrating talent and commitment, supporting those who needed to learn at a slower pace, massive access to music and dance, no rules about hair length or style, and if dyed it only had to be within a range if naturally occurring colours. So anyone if any background could dye their hair blonde, black, red (as in redhead, not pillar box) etc, but not blue.

Brands not allowed in bags or coats.

But each teacher could teach in their own way, using their own best strengths. Not follow the prescriptive LEAN method, or whatever it is called, and with a set script and structure for every lesson.