to think strict doesn’t automatically equals good when it comes to school?

[Merryoldgoat]

I have several friends who’s children have just started high school. These are some of the rules:

No talking in corridors
Single file in corridors
Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)
No brands of any kind
Bizarrely prescriptive rules about shoes
No artificially coloured hair

It feels like every single time a child tries to express themselves they get punished.

Is this what every school is like now? My DC are younger and I’ve not experienced this but I’m dreading it to be frank.

If you teach in a school like this how do you feel about it? It feels so draconian.

How would adults feel if they were treated like this in the workplace?

Actually some of us are. Thankfully I went to a school that enforced discipline, so I was ready for it.

This is just madness. Ever worked in an office where your freezing wearing layers and someone is walking around in a T-shirt saying it’s too warm or vice versa. Children are the exact same they don’t all perceive temperature the same. The school has taken even the basic decision of whether they are at a comfortable temperature away from them. For what? So they all look neat in their blazers. Children are not robots.
Uniforms are so antiquated I wish there were more schools without uniforms.

@Pythonista

How would adults feel if they were treated like this in the workplace?

Actually some of us are. Thankfully I went to a school that enforced discipline, so I was ready for it.

Are you happy in your job? Was it your choice?

@Crunchingleaf
Me too.
Dd has left school now but when I chose it for her it was 2nd in the league tables in Glasgow, 1st was The Gaelic school which wasn't an option for her.
Lack of uniform clearly didn't affect results.

Are you happy in your job? Was it your choice?

I like doing what I do. It wasn't necessarily my choice to work in that kind of environment but it didn't come as a shock to the system. We have to behave in a certain way, if we are late then we are accountable. There is a strict hierarchy.

I left school about 25 years ago. It was stricter then than now but ultimately it has stood me in good stead for dealing with it.

I have ASD and the only rule we didn't have was to be quiet in the corridors. Obviously ASD wasn't really known about then and I remember the terror of having to get to a different classroom among a load of loud, jostling kids.

@loopylindi

School is a preparation for life and there are many 'rules' that we have that enable everyone to live their lives harmoniously /safely. Accepting that and adhering to rules when young is bedrock for adulthood. Non-acceptance/adherence.....well we read about that daily.

My bedrock for rules in adult life would be: Work ethic Honesty To behave with kindness and Respect Law observant Financially competent and responsible Take responsibility for your actions, and your dependents Meet your obligations Take part in community life, be a good citizen.

Etc

Detailed uniform rules are not necessary for any of this. In fact are a distraction from the main issues of living a good life.

There is the true story about the airline that crashed because no one felt able to question the pilots decision - even when their life depended on it. Blind obedience isn’t safe.

Lots of posters on here promoting absolute obedience would do well to read Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed. Or then again why bother better to live in an ignorance.

My bedrock for rules in adult life would be:
Work ethic
Honesty
To behave with kindness and Respect
Law observant
Financially competent and responsible
Take responsibility for your actions, and your dependents
Meet your obligations
Take part in community life, be a good citizen.

That's lovely. Except humans are generally motivated by self interest.

The taking responsibility is one I agree with but things like 'kindness' is not quantifiable and means different things to different people

@PostItNow

Lots of posters on here promoting absolute obedience would do well to read Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed. Or then again why bother better to live in an ignorance.

There is a difference between mindless obedience and not being allowed to run riot at school

@Crunchingleaf exactly. We don’t all feel the same in the same environment. In my old school we’d have a range from boys who wore shorts all years round to kids in thermals in summer. Things like bmi index, age, family habits and culture all played a part in response to the climate. It can really affect you being either constantly cold or overheated. Maybe 80% are fine. But why should any one suffer being uncomfortable regularly for no particular reason?

@Pythonista sure there’s a big difference between being allowed to run riot and not being allowed to remove a blazer when you are too hot - that’s blind obedience and it’s not healthy for the individual or the country’s future.

As a former teacher (albeit at primary level) I find it hugely depressing that so many schools are now heading in this direction. It’s actually part of the reason I jumped ship, as even several years ago I could see the way things were heading, with the super strict, zero tolerance ethos going hand in hand with creeping academisation and corporatisation of education and an increasingly prescriptive curriculum that stifles enquiry and creativity. The government, however, loves all the zero tolerance stuff, as it makes them look tough and proactive, and it’s even creeping in at primary level now (new free school near me has the same ethos of silent corridors, detentions for minor infringements etc).

DD will be starting Reception next year and we’ll be doing all we can - including moving catchments if necessary - to avoid schools like this. I accept that the zero tolerance approach may bear fruit for some schools in especially challenging areas, whose students benefit from the strict discipline and structure (Michaela is perhaps a good case study in this regard). But I hate the ‘one size fits all’ approach that the government seems to be taking by pushing this style of education on the wider population. In my eyes it has the potential to create a generation of anxious automatons with the inability to question authority and think for themselves.

Certainly, as an academic but sensitive, creative and slightly disorganised/dreamy child, this kind of school would have been a disaster for me; I’d have been living in constant low level fear of putting a foot wrong, and I suspect DD will be similar. I also worry about the implications for inclusivity and the practice in many such schools of off-rolling pupils who don’t/won’t fit their mould.

Thankfully we have options and the ability to opt out, but many don’t.

@TempsPerdu

As a former teacher (albeit at primary level) I find it hugely depressing that so many schools are now heading in this direction. It’s actually part of the reason I jumped ship, as even several years ago I could see the way things were heading, with the super strict, zero tolerance ethos going hand in hand with creeping academisation and corporatisation of education and an increasingly prescriptive curriculum that stifles enquiry and creativity. The government, however, loves all the zero tolerance stuff, as it makes them look tough and proactive, and it’s even creeping in at primary level now (new free school near me has the same ethos of silent corridors, detentions for minor infringements etc).

DD will be starting Reception next year and we’ll be doing all we can - including moving catchments if necessary - to avoid schools like this. I accept that the zero tolerance approach may bear fruit for some schools in especially challenging areas, whose students benefit from the strict discipline and structure (Michaela is perhaps a good case study in this regard). But I hate the ‘one size fits all’ approach that the government seems to be taking by pushing this style of education on the wider population. In my eyes it has the potential to create a generation of anxious automatons with the inability to question authority and think for themselves.

Certainly, as an academic but sensitive, creative and slightly disorganised/dreamy child, this kind of school would have been a disaster for me; I’d have been living in constant low level fear of putting a foot wrong, and I suspect DD will be similar. I also worry about the implications for inclusivity and the practice in many such schools of off-rolling pupils who don’t/won’t fit their mould.

Thankfully we have options and the ability to opt out, but many don’t.

I find it hugely depressing that the focus on teaching is on grades - forget creativity, joy of learning, personal growth. We have completely fucked up the incentives for teachers and we continue to blame the kids and their families. it completely amazes me how the system is really not fit for purpose - you take kids who have come from dysfunctional backgrounds and you try to force them to behave by enforcing rules - it achieves fuck all - might make teacher’s life easier - which I find, as a reason depressing as fuck - who are you? shame on you educators!

I think enough educators have said they disagree, and there’s a lot of politicians, businessmen and carpet salesman behind the fashion.
I left teaching mainly because I felt there was so little scope for quality teaching. Out went skills, writing for purpose etc and in came checklists, memorisation, bureaucracy and a stifling of creativity in any form. A thirst for learning was swapped for anxiety for many.
I loved teaching, I was good at it. I didn’t sign up to monitor shoe material or enforce silliness with coloured card.

@TheViewFromTheCheapSeats

I think enough educators have said they disagree, and there’s a lot of politicians, businessmen and carpet salesman behind the fashion. I left teaching mainly because I felt there was so little scope for quality teaching. Out went skills, writing for purpose etc and in came checklists, memorisation, bureaucracy and a stifling of creativity in any form. A thirst for learning was swapped for anxiety for many. I loved teaching, I was good at it. I didn’t sign up to monitor shoe material or enforce silliness with coloured card.

Someone I recently became friendly with told me she loved teaching - I was genuinely surprised I have genuinely never felt like my dc’s teachers have loved their jobs. Strict though - plenty of that - inspiring though - didn’t see much of that! 🤔

I went to a school with rigid rules like that. No uniform but strict dress code. Things like no trousers for girls. No talking in halls or lunchroom. Etc.

I was a very rule abiding child but the anxiety all the rules created was awful. I used to lie awake at night worrying about things like what if my period started (because of the no going to your locker in between classes rule). I remember asking my Mum if she could sew me a little pouch of some sort I could wear to keep sanipro on me just in case.

I know that sounds extreme, but a highly rules bound environment is threatening to some kids. It felt like a nightmare being in that school. I was constantly afraid I would put a foot wrong and be in trouble.

@PostItNow I genuinely enjoyed teaching. I enjoy time with children and seeing them develop, I still volunteer in various ways weekly. I think there’s a fair few of us. I gave up extra time for art clubs and saw them win competitions, or sport events, and it had a feel good factor. I liked seeing kids move on in a good place to succeed/ genuinely secure and happy. Every profession has some problems, but most are decent.
I didn’t enjoy being on site for 8-6 for no good reason and missing my own children, or pointless paperwork, enforcing pointless rules. I could for example hand out 4 pens at the beginning of a lesson, and collect them back in seconds. Couldn’t care less about bringing a few extra. Yet instead I was meant to waste learning time writing up children for losing pens and the drama that brings. I mean… I’m an adult and lose pens still occasionally.
When Ofsted and SLT fed back I was consistently’outstanding’ (meh), I genuinely was good and never had classroom management difficulties- but it nearly broke me. Lastly I loved working with children, but the parental interaction was often far less fun. Eg ‘I’ll fucking kick your head in if it’s not found’ over lost lunchboxes’ or going mad over ‘bullying’ because of adult fall-outs when the children involved were happy.

I accept that the zero tolerance approach may bear fruit for some schools in especially challenging areas, whose students benefit from the strict discipline and structure (Michaela is perhaps a good case study in this regard)

Actually I am especially upset by this approach for children from suffix backgrounds and cannot stand the punitive atmosphere imposed upon kids just because they are disadvantaged.

I run educational / participatory/ additional curriculum projects with kids who include those excluded from school, referred by the justice system, at risk of offending etc etc. The vast majority respond well to mutual respect, mutual expectation of good behaviour and especially being listened to and given the chance to be creative, expressive and feel safe. With rules that they understand the need for.

That Michaela school woman was exploitative of children, the way she wrote about them in her column and book, and in Lambeth where she taught, parents responded with a resounding ‘no’ to the consultation to found her new school there.

And look what had happened to Toby Young’s ‘bring back grammar style old school strictness’ vanity project: descended into a crucible of bullying and misery.

@EdgeOfTheSky yes! And then these state school suppressed anxious children walk into a job market or university with the same bit of paper as private school kids. Who’ve had debating societies and every confidence building enrichment activity going. Who have a boldness and approach to problem solving that can’t be matched.
I went through it. My first degree was in a traditional subject in a good university, I was the only state school pupil in my tutor group. I nearly curled and died in the first year as they all dominated talk and I had to share my inflexible and structured writing capabilities.
It’s actually more divisive sometimes than just poor grades, a state school system that is so so far away from the private sector.

@EdgeOfTheSky

I accept that the zero tolerance approach may bear fruit for some schools in especially challenging areas, whose students benefit from the strict discipline and structure (Michaela is perhaps a good case study in this regard)

Actually I am especially upset by this approach for children from suffix backgrounds and cannot stand the punitive atmosphere imposed upon kids just because they are disadvantaged.

I run educational / participatory/ additional curriculum projects with kids who include those excluded from school, referred by the justice system, at risk of offending etc etc. The vast majority respond well to mutual respect, mutual expectation of good behaviour and especially being listened to and given the chance to be creative, expressive and feel safe. With rules that they understand the need for.

That Michaela school woman was exploitative of children, the way she wrote about them in her column and book, and in Lambeth where she taught, parents responded with a resounding ‘no’ to the consultation to found her new school there.

And look what had happened to Toby Young’s ‘bring back grammar style old school strictness’ vanity project: descended into a crucible of bullying and misery.

It's the vulnerable kids my Sil's school is helping they need nurture and care, they need to learn how to trust adults, they need to be taught how to learn and be social before they start formal learning. These kids see adults as the enemy, their life experience has taught them that adults are not to be trusted, adults cause them physical and emotional pain - teachers often do not understand how to help these kids, instead my sil often hears them say to the kids "how dare you do that in my class/ how dare you speak to me like that etc -newsflash - it's not about the teacher!, it's the child that is in pain and needs help. She gets varied responses from teachers to her invention (they bring her in to help) - lots of teachers just can't move away from the punishment/control/shame model and unfortunately these damaged kids can fix themselves - they can't be made better by punishment. The current system is truly fucking over and letting down these very damaged kids.

I initially went to quite a strict secondary school which was fastidious about uniform etc. It was a miserable experience for many reasons, but retrospectively I think that constantly coming down on teenagers about fairly irrelevant things just causes pent up aggro. That particular school had a culture of low level sniping, unpleasantness and bullying and I don't think it was unconnected to the staff constantly hammering on at people.

I then moved to another school which was much more relaxed and my god it was a huge breath of fresh air. The children were all much happier and it felt like we all had permission to be ourselves. The uniform policy was practical and fairly relaxed and the whole school culture just felt like one where you as a student were trusted to make good choices, rather than constantly policed for petty infringements. Behaviour on the whole was much better than the first place. Similar cohort - the schools were only a couple of miles apart and had the same feeder primaries. The difference was in the school culture.

Having over-strict rules is often the mark of a poor school. There is a perception, particularly amongst academies, that parents like it and therefore they concentrate on discipline at the expense of good teaching. Operating draconian rules is so much easier than ensuring that teachers plan and deliver engaging lessons, and in particular pushing pupils with disabilities and SEN out is much, much easier than making adjustments and meeting their needs.

The irony is that school with very strict discipline policies regularly break the law on equality. Surely disobeying the law of the land is infinitely worse than having shoes the wrong colour?

@LemonWeb

I like rules. Michaela Community School in London has rules like this - I think it’s called the warm strict approach. The kids just know absolutely what to expect and there’s complete consistency. Their results are fantastic: unsurprisingly the kids do really well when their learning isn’t disrupted and they’re given some sensible behaviour rules to make the community work. I’d send my kids to a school like this without hesitation.

Not really. Their results are good because children are made to rote-learn standard answers to exam questions and to trot them out without applying their own minds to analysing the questions, and regrettably the current structure for public exams allows for this. None have gone through universities yet, but pupils from schools using similar methods notoriously crash and burn when required to think for themselves.

And their SEN statistics tell their own tale about how supportive they really are.

I wonder how much time these draconian school uniform rules take away from teaching time?