to think strict doesn’t automatically equals good when it comes to school?

[Merryoldgoat]

I have several friends who’s children have just started high school. These are some of the rules:

No talking in corridors
Single file in corridors
Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)
No brands of any kind
Bizarrely prescriptive rules about shoes
No artificially coloured hair

It feels like every single time a child tries to express themselves they get punished.

Is this what every school is like now? My DC are younger and I’ve not experienced this but I’m dreading it to be frank.

If you teach in a school like this how do you feel about it? It feels so draconian.

But lots of children like a quiet corridor. Other lessons are often still in class where others are moving. Single file makes sense to accommodate others in the other direction. Long gone are the days kids could race down the corridor and barge into each other disrupting lessons. Thankgod.

Then again, I went to a school where one of the teachers had a home made car bomb left under their car at their home. The teenagers involved weren't very bright when it came to chemistry and physics (electronics) and didn't seek advice from those who would have been able to build devices that worked properly.

I think this is a stragety used in school where pupils may come from struggling homes?
Wasn't there a thread about the this it yet school with very strict rules and it was because the pupils came from chaotic life styles with few rules so this type of thing almost became a ladder to climb up and climb and cling too.

A noisy and chaotic corridor when there are boys five years older than him crashing into him and shouting at each other could be worse. Try to work with the school on things you have some control over so you can get their support for things he struggles with.

I agree with you OP, I don't remember my school (which was a just a big standard comp but decent and without any particular behavioural problems) being anything like that draconian, which was was about 30 hrs ago now. I certainly wouldn't want my children when the time comes going somewhere quite that strict, it seems overly harsh. Of course I want good behaviour and learning to be prioritised but I don't think being draconian and stifling all self expression achieves good outcomes.

By high school most children (baring special needs) should be able to understand the need stay quiet on certain situations, single file when needed and get themselves to class on time. It's really not that difficult.

Damn autocorrect - *bog standard / 30 yrs ago...

Rules are important and some schools are far stricter than others with zero tolerance.

I don't think zero tolerance and no explanation allowed is a good environment to learn in.

Imagine working in that? You get stuck in traffic and are late for work and punished no questions asked - or worse - no excuses allowed.

The same re extremely strict rules with uniform. I despair that some local schools to me actually do uniform inspections whilst the kids line up outside every lesson, then wait while infringements are recorded or they are sent to isolation. 5-10 minutes every lesson.
And I don't think it's hard to see why the 2 schools that do it have the worse results year on year. They waste teaching and learning time.

I have 2 other local schools who have a really relaxed polo and jumper uniform who are top performing year on year.

The other 3 which are somewhere in the middle perform well (2 above average and 1 average progress 8). They seem to find the right balance.

But I don't think it's a great environment to walk in silence through corridors. Single or double file is fine due to safety.

Too many rules are just anxiety driving and they keep saying how much anxiety is increasing in children that age. Maybe they need an honest look at why?

One of the really strict schools near me put a pupil in isolation when they were wearing the regulation school skirt in longer length because it was too far above her knees. They wouldn't let her mum buy an alternative skirt - said she must buy the school one. Yet couldn't actually answer (or refused to) what mum was meant to do as they one they insisted she wore was too short according to them

Mum withdrew the child from that school in the end and sent to her to one of the more relaxed ones. Her confidence grew over the next few months and she started enjoying school again.

How would adults feel if they were treated like this in the workplace? It's horrible. Sadly it's part of the academy culture now designed to keep the minions in their place. I've worked in state schools and private schools and it's usually the schools in the most deprived areas that have the most draconian rules. The pupils at the 30 grand a year private school didn't have to wear any uniform, could just go out to the toilet whenever they liked, drink in class and were generally treated with respect. The state school kids are treated like shit in comparison. Fortunately we're privileged enough to put our daughter into private education where the children are treated respectfully but her former state academy was awful. But I really believe that it's deliberate; it's training the riff-raff to know their place and do as they're told.

I think my younger one with some SEN that tipped into full blown MH issues would have sort of liked the corridors stuff, but not the lateness. Not that she was late but it would have made her worried.
The devil is in the detail with these things as to whether it is a 100% no excuses, or cut some slack.
I wouldn't actively choose a school with very strict/rigid rules unless the other options were all awful.

Idk how you would enforce no talking in corridors - I also think it’s stupid. Single file at least makes sense. Detentions for Lateness - hmmm I’d have to know more about they are enforcing that, sounds difficult and could cause unnecessary conflict. I’m not into uniform but accept that there’s not much to be done about it in the UK. But as someone who works in schools I do find it depressing to have to work somewhere overly strict, which I have done.

When I was at school, a thousand years ago, our shoes had to be flat lace ups and there was a minimum length required from the toe to the tongue. Tricky when you have small feet.

If a school bus is late, the school will have been informed and there won’t be a detention. If it’s a question of calling at the shop on the way and making yourself late, or just dawdling, there will.

Having spent more hours than I care to recall, standing outside, urging students to be on time and even more hours supervising and chasing detentions, I think it’s fair to say that detentions aren’t issued for the fun of it.

In my experience, students with ASD cope with rules, as long as they’re explained and seen to be applied fairly. Things like sensitivity to certain materials were always taken into consideration too.

I'm prepared to be corrected but schools in Scotland seem to manage OK without these rules. I've worked with many and not been aware of any with such draconian rules.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be rules, it’s just the draconian enforcement and extremely prescriptive nature of them.

Obviously you need rules and it’s perfectly reasonable to have rules about conduct and behaviour but it feels like they’re walking about like automatons from some things I hear.

I will have to look into where is suitable for my son when the time comes but it does worry me.

I think it’s the uniform stuff that bothers me the most. I think you learn best when comfortable and feeling like yourself and find the obsession with being smart a bit odd.

A rowdy corridor can be a scary place, even dangerous. Confined space, lots of people, pushing and shoving, noisy and chaotic, so anyone trying to bring order has no chance. Firm rules mean everyone knows what's expected, it's hard for everyone if it's all a bit fluid and what seems OK one day crosses a line another day (or for another teacher).

@Merryoldgoat

I wore what amounted to a tracksuit and red Fila trainers to high school (giving away my age there). I felt comfy and happy and like ‘me’.

Isn't this one of the reasons to have uniform? It's OK for you, your parents were willing and able to buy the Fila tracksuit....

No talking in corridors = sometimes justified, if lessons are going on or children are going to the next lesson they don't need to be stopping to chat with friends. Nothing wrong with talking to the person you are walking to class with, though!
Single file in corridors Sensible if people are coming the other way.
Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute) No issue with this. Persistent lateness interrupts the lesson and others peoples learning.
No brands of any kind this is an anti-bullying measure, no issues for me.
Bizarrely prescriptive rules about shoes - depends on the rules, I suppose!
No artificially coloured hair- this is the only one I find daft, teenagers should be free to do what they like with hair.

I've been seeing and hearing this a lot. Some of the rules are OK but wearing a blazer what ever the weather ridiculous! How are kids supposed to concentrate if they're too hot. I also think the shoes and haircut rules are completely out of hand now uniforms as long as they are decent and the correct colour so it stops costing a fortune. Detention for being 1 min late also one person's watch could read slightly different to someone elses maybe dentetnion if more than 3 minutes. They say this is about preparing kids for the world of work but I wouldn't have thought most jobs are this rigid. Poor kids

It is a hotly debated issue among teachers right now about whether it's effective. Many teachers hate it but have to abide by strict rules if management set them. I've seen people who like these rules say that teenagers want to push boundaries so these kinds of rules give them boundaries which are safe to push

@Merryoldgoat

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be rules, it’s just the draconian enforcement and extremely prescriptive nature of them.

Obviously you need rules and it’s perfectly reasonable to have rules about conduct and behaviour but it feels like they’re walking about like automatons from some things I hear.

I will have to look into where is suitable for my son when the time comes but it does worry me.

I think it’s the uniform stuff that bothers me the most. I think you learn best when comfortable and feeling like yourself and find the obsession with being smart a bit odd.

Uniform leads to less bullying about clothes. Everybody wearing the same means nobody is singled out. But that doesn't mean they should need to wear a blazer and tie, I agree!

The uniform stuff isn't hard though, is it? (except for those with sensory issues) (Though I accept some uniforms are OTT in requirements and cost).

Buy stuff that meets requirements, not stuff that doesn't.
Wear it properly.
Don't die your hair pink or have zig zags shaved in.

@GreatPotato

It was a black supermarket tracksuit abs the Fila trainers were a knock off from the marker.

I grew up in a workless household on benefits. I can assure you I wasn’t in possession of the enviable clothing.

People know who has money and who doesn’t regardless of the faux concern the non-brand-brigade express.

I always think it’s interesting how people are more concerned with people appearing well off than people actually being poor.

I've been a teacher for 25 years and have secondary age dc and I agree with you, OP. I am not a lax teacher by any means, but I don't think draconian rules are usually helpful. Zero tolerance rules should be kept for things like offensive language, disruptive behaviour, bullying, damage to property, disrespectful behaviour towards staff etc. Not saying hi to a friend in the corridor or having a branded pencil case fgs!

The not talking in the corridors rule is frankly absurd. The only time significant numbers of kids are in the corridors is between lessons. It would take umpteen members of staff standing in the corridors to police that rule, and it's totally unnecessary. Expecting students to be quiet and pay attention in lessons and then move to their next lesson without a single word to their friends and classmates is just mean and a bit pathetically power-trippy, frankly.

I'm not a fan of uniform, partly because it creates more unnecessary rules to be broken. I think rules should prioritise learning, safety and well-being, not create a military-type atmosphere.

No talking in corridors makes sense until you realise that they are controlled about when to talk in class too. I’d want silence in class when needed, but not silence when they leave the class. That’d mean being stopped from communicating with their peers for hours at a time. Only talking at break is crazy really. Obviously quiet, sensible behaviour in corridors is what you’re after and some schools feel that their students are sooooo crazy that if you let them speak, everything falls apart. Strange mindset to be honest. Re uniform, I’d get rid of uniform completely, so much effort expended on policing tiny things, but people like to control what they can. Honestly, I do think some children thrive on clear, black and white rules, but I don’t think it’s everyone or even the majority. Some adults do too, and I don’t think children are that different to adults. Worked in a school like this and at first, loved the idea of the clear consequence system but in the end you get kids using it back at you, eg. ‘But Miss, I know I haven’t really done anything you’ve asked from me all lesson but you were busy dealing with Bob, so you didn’t give me the 3.78 warnings you are supposed to give me.’

Quite few years ago, the BBC produced a series of radio programmes based on real secondary schools. What struck me was that they punished running in the corridor so severely that they was barely any distinction between the punishment for that behaviour and mugging an old lady during the lunch break.

I'm all for sensible rules, but when young people can indulge in so much forbidden and risky behaviour, do we really have to tell them off for the clothes they wear and how they style their hair?